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Does your Mustang Amp go "rice krispies" when used as a USB audio interface?
Yep 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
No, never. 60%  60%  [ 3 ]
Don't care - get a real interface. 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 5
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Post subject: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:21 pm
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I own both a Mustang I Amp (V1) and a Mustang Floor (love these things) and I have found the USB drivers to be unreliable at all buffer settings for recording purposes (never had a problem with FUSE, though). After a while they just kind of freak-out and make like rice krispies (snap, crackle, pop). I think this could be a hardware problem (internal clock?), so it may never be fixed, but perhaps a driver that isn't just an ASIO4ALL preset would help things.

(but)

given the Mustangs can't output processed audio from a DAW, they will always have to find a way to interact with another audio interface/sound card, and for that, ASIO4ALL may be the only game in town without some serious RnD on Fender's part.

Perhaps this is why the rice krispies issue occurs - maybe the clocks of the two interfaces always end up drifting from each other. I don't know much about this stuff, but I'd just like to get some conversation going on this, and some transparent talk from a tech guy from Fender would be awesome.

For instance, if Fender would say, 'ya - we can't really do much better with the hardware that's out there and it's as good as it gets on the driver side' that would be cool with me - I just want to know. I'd also like to know what the exact settings are that Fender used when they "locked them in" to ASIO4ALL and then rebranded the driver as their own (Fender Universal Audio Driver) so that I can be sure to duplicate them (or not, if they set it up wrong) when I use the real ASIO4ALL driver.

Thanks to anyone that responds to this.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:31 am
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Try with the original ASIO, newer version, works better:

http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/201 ... -asio.html

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You can find all my Mustang tips here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/
An Unofficial guide to Fender Mustang Effects here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/p/unoffcial-guide-to-fender-mustang.html

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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:59 am
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Hey there. I was actually on your blog right before I originally posted this to check out your effects guide - good stuff, sir.

I still get instability with ASIO4ALL proper (07 June 2013: Version 2.11 Beta 2) as well - which is why I believe it to be something related to the way the Mustang talks to my sound card(s). When I use the USB on the Mustang (Floor), it is usually in conjunction with my laptop's internal sound card - a Realtek something er other, which is obviously not ideal. I have had more stable results with a Tascam US-144 mk II and a cheaper Behringer UCA, but it was still in a place where I wouldn't want to run the rig live - which is my aim.

Surely there are other ways to get my guitar into my computer than the Mustang's USB jack, but it could be a real problemsolver for me if I can get it to behave in ASIO4ALL with any other audio interface.

Maybe this is my way of begging for a firmware update, but I don't know the limitations of said updates, and I get the feeling that when people beg for firmware updates, what Fender hears is 'they want to buy the next upgraded product' - I don't.

Thanks again for your blog service to the Mustang community, I'll have to take some more time to look around.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:40 am
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I think that some more information on your system would be useful if you want some help in resolving your issue.

Consider that your Amp does not interact directly with the soundcard, various computer "layers" are passed through between the two device and the problem is likely to be there.

Did you made some test with a minimal set of application running? I found that anything with FLASH inside exhaust enough resources to be a problem in any serious audio situation...

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I love my Mustang!

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You can find all my Mustang tips here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/
An Unofficial guide to Fender Mustang Effects here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/p/unoffcial-guide-to-fender-mustang.html

USB Footswitch Opensource Project:

https://github.com/mordor74/mustang-raider


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:07 am
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The low-end sound cards I referenced previously run smoothly on their own - the trouble starts when I involve the Mustang. My system is Win 7 x64 8gb ram amd phenom II n660 3 ghz and I keep things rather stripped down on my computer - definitely nothing with flash runs while I'm in my DAW (Ableton 64bit) - not a fancy system or anything, but it handles everything I can throw at Ableton (realtime effects, vsti's, mastering chain for live use with a drummer on a control pad, both of us using instances of looper etc.) when I'm not using the Mustang - I just need one more input and I'm on a tight budget - the Mustang should be able to do this for me.

I should admit that I also recently had some problems with a Focusrite 6i6, but I went through an extensive tech support screen share with a guy from Sweetwater and we concluded that the driver stability (or lack thereof) isn't what gets those things sold. He immediately switched me from Focusrite's native driver to asio4all, which was depressing as I bought the device assuming its native driver support would provide for massive improvements over the three interfaces I'd been using.

The reason I want the Mustang to play nice with other interfaces is because I'm getting a Roland quadcapture, but I would like one more input than it provides because I currently can't utilize its spdif in - I figured I could try the mustang floor with it via asio4all, maybe it'll work just fine, but I just figured I'd try to get some general answers and user experiences here.

Perhaps it's time to start looking at a converter to get my mustang floor into spdif coax somehow. I've run more than a bit off topic here, but that's my situation and motive for posting.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:36 am
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This sounds to me like a clocking issue. Is there any way in your recording software/device to lock to the incoming audio and not to its internal clock? You have to make sure 2 things

1) both devices are at the same Bit/Sample rate
2) you have proper sync lock.

When I use Protools with my GT6, I have to tell PT to lock to SPDIF otherwise I get the pops. I haven’t noticed any pops with the mustang in PT but I haven’t done much recording with it. Just putzed around with it a little.


good luck

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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:43 pm
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If you're connecting your Mustang to your PC with USB and using an ASIO driver to interface that USB data to your DAW, then your computer's soundcard has nothing to do with this, it isn't involved at all in getting audio from the Mustang to your DAW.

Similarly, there are no clocking issues here (this is a popular misconception) - all the computer is doing is reading digital data from the USB bus. If your computer can't read data from its USB ports, it has some bigger fundamental problem, nothing to do with audio clocking. As your computer seems actually to be working, I assume it doesn't have such a problem.

You don't say whether the 'pops' etc are just heard during live monitoring of the recording, or if they are also stored in the recorded audio file and heard every time you playback that file?

Also you don't say how you're listening to the audio, either for live monitoring or later playback. I guess you're sending the audio data to your computer's sound card, but what is that then connected to actually to produce audible sound?

It would be helpful to have the above answers. In the meantime, some possible causes for your problem:

- The ASIO driver is just rubbish and is losing data. This seems unlikely as other people use it successfully.

- Your computer isn't powerful enough for the software (ASIO driver, DAW, etc) to keep up with the amount of data arriving, possibly in conjunction with also sending data to your soundcard.

It could be a combination of the above; the processing load on your particular computer is on the limit exposing a weakness in the ASIO driver, that other people don't see.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:19 am
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I think that Scott-uk is doing a good analysis for you here.

Some other factor to consider may be the USB three. Do not use any hub on critical performance device. An usb hub share the bandwidth between all the device connected.

An USB "main" port has a nominal speed of 480 Mbit/s. The hub have to share in a "non intelligent" way the same speed to the number of port it offers. Also priority management may become an issue.

Consider that in many desktop the usb ports on the front panel are an hub belonging to the same main port and also on notebook you may find usb hub on board. My office notebook has an internal hub for the ports on the left side so that 2 real ports, the webcam, the touchpad and audio device are all connected to the same "main" port. The left side usb port are unusable for daw and have also slower performance when using external hdd's.


Also double check if every driver is 64bit.

_________________
I love my Mustang!

---------------------

You can find all my Mustang tips here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/
An Unofficial guide to Fender Mustang Effects here:
http://ridingthemustang.blogspot.it/p/unoffcial-guide-to-fender-mustang.html

USB Footswitch Opensource Project:

https://github.com/mordor74/mustang-raider


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:59 am
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captainc wrote:
This sounds to me like a clocking issue. Is there any way in your recording software/device to lock to the incoming audio and not to its internal clock? You have to make sure 2 things

1) both devices are at the same Bit/Sample rate
2) you have proper sync lock.

When I use Protools with my GT6, I have to tell PT to lock to SPDIF otherwise I get the pops. I haven’t noticed any pops with the mustang in PT but I haven’t done much recording with it. Just putzed around with it a little.


good luck


Thanks for the reminders here. I'm not using spdif on any devices and in Ableton there is no such setting that I know of - there are midi sync options, but I don't think this is what you are talking about. I do keep the buffer sizes the same, along with the sample rates and bit depth.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:13 am
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scott-uk wrote:
If you're connecting your Mustang to your PC with USB and using an ASIO driver to interface that USB data to your DAW, then your computer's soundcard has nothing to do with this, it isn't involved at all in getting audio from the Mustang to your DAW.

Similarly, there are no clocking issues here (this is a popular misconception) - all the computer is doing is reading digital data from the USB bus. If your computer can't read data from its USB ports, it has some bigger fundamental problem, nothing to do with audio clocking. As your computer seems actually to be working, I assume it doesn't have such a problem.

You don't say whether the 'pops' etc are just heard during live monitoring of the recording, or if they are also stored in the recorded audio file and heard every time you playback that file?

Also you don't say how you're listening to the audio, either for live monitoring or later playback. I guess you're sending the audio data to your computer's sound card, but what is that then connected to actually to produce audible sound?

It would be helpful to have the above answers. In the meantime, some possible causes for your problem:

- The ASIO driver is just rubbish and is losing data. This seems unlikely as other people use it successfully.

- Your computer isn't powerful enough for the software (ASIO driver, DAW, etc) to keep up with the amount of data arriving, possibly in conjunction with also sending data to your soundcard.

It could be a combination of the above; the processing load on your particular computer is on the limit exposing a weakness in the ASIO driver, that other people don't see.


I got the clocking issue idea from reading the asio4all manual. My internal soundcard is part of the equation because I monitor the processed audio from my DAW with it. The asio4all manual states

"Multi-device-setups require that all the devices involved are running from the same clock source. You can
achieve this by daisy-chaining devices via S/PDIF etc. Fortunately, most USB devices will automatically
synchronize themselves for as long as the host controllers they are connected to have a common clock
source, which is trivially true for the USB host controllers embedded in the south bridge on any mainboard.
Note: If devices are not accurately synced, their audio streams are likely to drift apart over time!"

The click n pop stuff shows up in recordings and when I monitor my DAW without recording - I listen through headphones connected to my laptop's sound card.

I've been doing tests with DPC Latency Checker and LatencyMON to get a deeper understanding of whats going on in my computer, and like many that go this route I've found my WLAN is a bugaboo, and this discovery has actually made the Mustang's USB connectivity moot, as I am getting very stable results from the Focusrite 6i6 I was on the brink of returning -I've got all the ins I need, so I probably won't be using the Mustang via USB.

Thank you and everyone else that has responded so quickly.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:17 am
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mordor74 wrote:
I think that Scott-uk is doing a good analysis for you here.

Some other factor to consider may be the USB three. Do not use any hub on critical performance device. An usb hub share the bandwidth between all the device connected.

An USB "main" port has a nominal speed of 480 Mbit/s. The hub have to share in a "non intelligent" way the same speed to the number of port it offers. Also priority management may become an issue.

Consider that in many desktop the usb ports on the front panel are an hub belonging to the same main port and also on notebook you may find usb hub on board. My office notebook has an internal hub for the ports on the left side so that 2 real ports, the webcam, the touchpad and audio device are all connected to the same "main" port. The left side usb port are unusable for daw and have also slower performance when using external hdd's.


Also double check if every driver is 64bit.


I don't have any USB 3.0 jacks on my laptop - they're all 2.0 - I've also disabled some of the internal thingies that I don't need that may drawing on my internal hubs (webcam, card reader, optical drive, hdmi jack).

This is all good advice you're offering and I thank you and the others.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:30 am
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I have Ableton on my mac too and just checked. Yeah, doesn't look like you have any sync options other than midi. Bummer. I believe the Mustang is 16 Bit / 44.1KHz so assuming you have everything set to that everything should match but i still feel like somethings fighting over who's the master and thus causing overruns/underruns/drift. Maybe try taking the Focusrite out of the equation for a test?

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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:38 am
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captainc wrote:
I have Ableton on my mac too and just checked. Yeah, doesn't look like you have any sync options other than midi. Bummer. I believe the Mustang is 16 Bit / 44.1KHz so assuming you have everything set to that everything should match but i still feel like somethings fighting over who's the master and thus causing overruns/underruns/drift. Maybe try taking the Focusrite out of the equation for a test?


The Focus rite was never part of the equation with the Mustang - it was my internal soundcard and some other interfaces, now that it's working I don't care that the Mustang is glitchy, but someone else might!


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:55 am
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If the computer you use to record with connects to the internet or is on a network, the network adapter can use up critical available resources.

My recording setup connects to my home network. Normally, I have no need to have a network connection available so I temporarily disable the adapter and enable it only when I need to transfer files.

On Windows 7 you can follow Microsoft's instructions to disable/enable your adapter here:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/enable-or-disable-a-network-adapter

Try it and see if the clicks, pops and dropouts are reduced.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Universal ASIO4ALL Driver Development Problems?
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:57 am
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Super4wesomeGreat wrote:
captainc wrote:
I have Ableton on my mac too and just checked. Yeah, doesn't look like you have any sync options other than midi. Bummer. I believe the Mustang is 16 Bit / 44.1KHz so assuming you have everything set to that everything should match but i still feel like somethings fighting over who's the master and thus causing overruns/underruns/drift. Maybe try taking the Focusrite out of the equation for a test?


The Focus rite was never part of the equation with the Mustang - it was my internal soundcard and some other interfaces, now that it's working I don't care that the Mustang is glitchy, but someone else might!


Ahh sorry. I misunderstood where the Focusrite fell into this. Carry on then.

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