It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:40 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:27 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
Hi, feeling a little responsible for your useless speaker rework, i compaired one more time the sound of headphone vs the sound of BG-20...

The speaker suffers the small volume of cabinet, it should be double than is and remains such "little box feeling" but the speaker is not so extent as a regular tweeter would be and regarding response graph supplied by Visaton, a little mid-high peak is present, meaning that this speaker is not "so flat".
This leads to little different results from headphone, that stay behind but no dramatically better (in my opinion of course)

As far i can remember, the original speaker was worst and the "little box feeling" was much more present and was quite impossible have decent clean tones also.

Messin' around, i'm considering the insane idea to take the signal from headphone output (maybe externally to not modify original circuit and replace the back panel with another carrying a new 50w power amplifier (i have some my original projects), the relative power supply and a switch system to select original amp or the "boosted" one.
All that would be costless, since i have all the parts and it would requires only some passion but maybe should be better that i learn to play... Ok, less time waste buying another amp... ;-)


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:53 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:26 am
Posts: 500
Location: Lake Charles, LA
I kind-of anticipated this result.

Guitar amps have ALWAYS been direct-sound output devices. Speakers used with Guitar cabinets and guitar amps have ALWAYS been Lo-fi for that reason. There's a wide range of guitar speakers BECAUSE people use them to shape the tone of their amps.

The Fender Mustangs have cabinet simulators built into the DSP, but the amps themselves STILL USE a Lo-fi guitar speaker - albeit one with a more neutral frequency curve that they can use the DSP to filter into the different speaker sounds.

So of course, trying to push an MP3 track through it is going to sound weird. MP3s are usually meant for Hi-fi speakers like those found in headphones, earphones, desktop speakers, stereo audio amplifiers, etc. Speaking of headphones being hi-fi, Fender's engineers KNEW this, and so sent the audio signal of the Mustang through a hi-pass filter in order to try to make it sound close to what's coming out of your speaker. But they're not the same.

In my opinion, the headphones actually make my guitar tone sound WORSE than the speakers, so I'd never try to put a hi-fi speaker into my Mustangs. Really, I only use my headphones for silent "at night" practicing. Then again, my headphones are Sony MDR-V600 Studio Monitoring headphones. They cost me $100 and come with a 1/4" adapter.

Also, pushing the volume on your headphones will make your tone sound WORSE. Pushing volume on a guitar speaker, however, usually improves your tone. Guitar speakers were designed to move air...lots of air. Using them at ridiculously low volumes will always make your tone sound thin, sharp, or weak.

_________________
Marshall JVM410H + 1960A Lead
Fender Mustang V + V412
Fender Mustang II
Marshall Lead 12 3005 MS
Gibson Les Paul Custom Silverburst
Gibson SG Faded Special
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Hagstrom Ultra-Swede
Custom Warmoth Strat


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:07 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:53 am
Posts: 16
Thanks very much guys for your quick response.

merifon, please don’t feel responsible foe my little experiment, at least I was the one who started this thread :-).

Everything fine, lessons learned, back to square one. I am off on vacation for a week so all of you have all a good time and see you soon!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:10 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 1315
Location: England
Quote:
The Fender Mustangs have cabinet simulators built into the DSP, but the amps themselves STILL USE a Lo-fi guitar speaker ... So of course, trying to push an MP3 track through it is going to sound weird

+1 all that ffxihealer says.

One interesting idea though that was alluded to in an earlier reply: what if Fender were to fit a hi-fi speaker (with associated power amp and cabinet tweaks to suit), so that audio played through the 'aux' socket sounded good... and then enhance the cab-simulation DSP to preserve the 'lo-fi' sound we (counter-intuitively) all expect and want from a guitar amp. At the moment, it seems the final tone shaping is a mixture of DSP and the physical speaker. There's nothing to stop it being done all in the DSP.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:39 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:53 am
Posts: 16
@ scott-UK

Yeah, this is exactly what I would suggest.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:40 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
Posts: 824
scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
The Fender Mustangs have cabinet simulators built into the DSP, but the amps themselves STILL USE a Lo-fi guitar speaker ... So of course, trying to push an MP3 track through it is going to sound weird

+1 all that ffxihealer says.

One interesting idea though that was alluded to in an earlier reply: what if Fender were to fit a hi-fi speaker (with associated power amp and cabinet tweaks to suit), so that audio played through the 'aux' socket sounded good... and then enhance the cab-simulation DSP to preserve the 'lo-fi' sound we (counter-intuitively) all expect and want from a guitar amp. At the moment, it seems the final tone shaping is a mixture of DSP and the physical speaker. There's nothing to stop it being done all in the DSP.



The G-DECs do exactly that. Personally I prefer speakers crafted for guitar amps. I'm not sure how much distortion a hi-fi speaker would support before giving up, but guitar speakers seem more sturdy to me.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:47 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
You're right but consider that Mustang 1 is just a little modelling amp. I think nobody expects from it a big sound pressure. His power amp, goes in trouble even before the speaker...
The G-dec was exactly what i was looking for but it is no more in production and i wrongly assumed that mustang1 had the same philosofy.
In the Fender web page i have read: "One - 8" Fender® Special Design"... So i thought that was referred to a widerange speaker, as many modelling amps have.
In facts, mustang cabinet modeling by DSP, cuts high frequencies on a speaker that already has a hi-cut. I found clean tones not satisfying.
Just setting cabinet to off and letting the speaker have his normal guitar response, leaded to (for me) acceptable clean tone.
Unlucky, a day i listened a real Twin Reverb, so i decided to do someting...

The BG-20 speaker mentioned above, is not "so Hi-Fi" as a real added tweeter could be and is more strong than original 8" (yes, 20cm is less exotic.. :D ). It can do his job.



Finally is matter of project phylosophy but the sensation is that the original 8" limits modelling possibilities.

In the future firmwares, i hope Fender adds editable cabinets response...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:10 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
Hi to everybody,
I did further listening to dual cone...
This speaker i still think is much better for clean tones but i have to admit that distorted ones, should have a gentle hi freq attenuation. With tone controls, is possible to improve but this attenuation should be at speaker stage...
I thought two possible solutions: a 0,22mH inductance, maybe switchable, to apply a 6dB/oct filter to gently cut over 6000Hz on the speaker or in a second way, a disc of acoustic foam placed in center of speaker grille.
This second solution, seem to be very effective and very easy to apply. The foam give a little attenuation on high side but still clean tones are good, while crunched ones are now more as they should be. I'm still thinking that original speaker is simply not suitable for modeling amps...
Regarding the LR filter, i found a 5€ inductor and i will try asap...

Ok, the total extra amount is at the moment 26€, still affordable in relation of amplifier cost...

If Fender put a equalizer or a cabinet editor, it should be definitively better...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:06 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:53 am
Posts: 16
captainc wrote:
Thanks for the report. Does that little hole you drilled give you an open back feel?


Maybe it is just my perception – having fooled around with the amp and changed some little thing irreversibly – but to me the speaker sounds a little better now. A little less boxy and a bit more breathing.

Even if this is just an illusion, it still works for me (though alas not in stereo).

Greets


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:02 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
Hi everybody, after sea holydays i added the 0.22mH coil in series to visaton speaker.
Thanks to his 6dB/oct cut above 5800Hz, the "sizzle" of distorted sounds disappeared and the clean sounds still are good.
I did not put a switch to bypass the coil, music via aux input remains acceptable so there is no reason to remove the hi-cut.

It seems that Mustang1 v1 needed a speaker not so cutted as the original one and not so extended as a full range...

No irreversible works, no big expenses, a reasonable fun and an amplifier that is satisfying at last...


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:16 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
The Saga continues...

having found that headphone sound was a little less "sizzling" than coiled new speaker, i added a capacitor to make a second order filter and have a 12dB/oct instead a 6dB/oct.

The capacitor value suited for 0.22mH coil, was 2,2uF, to have 9252Hz cut frequency.
After some test, i choosen 0,75uF. With original value, distorted sounds were good at last but i did not like clean ones. 0,75 is a good compromise and playng music is not as bad as original Fender speaker.

After all this work i got a speaker with response suited for fender setups, that i hardly believe they were made keeping in mind MustangI, maybe the II...

If Fender used a fullrange cone, presets could be less speaker related.

I think that my customized MustangI sounds much better than stock ones. I spent less than 30euros and not so much time. Now i have to learn play guitar...

See ya


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:36 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
Hi everybody,

while keep trying to learn playing, I did some measure of frequency response in Mustang 1 V1
Even if this will not make me a musician, could be intersting to see...

Image

not scientific method, i measured volts on speaker terminals and headphone out (line level load), with a old Tektronix scope and converted in dB relative to measured 1KHz level.
The souce was a signal generator app sent to guitar and aux inputs.
The guitar amp setup, was a given Twinamp with no fx but i forgot to select a default one so it is an adjusted one...

I have some complains about precision on hi freq guitar headphone lecture, since there were some little slow fluctuations in output, maybe due to hi impedance load. Maybe better if i loaded it with real headphone.

as you can see, the responses are different. Amp out has an equalisation that try to compensate hi freq loss of original (not so good) speaker.


Last edited by merifon on Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:25 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
After the measures, i tryed a new speaker also...
The "custom filtered" Visaton BG20 was good for clean tones but not all distorted sounds were acceptables. I guess for some resonance between cone and whizzer at certain frequencies, that are acceptable for music but can be bad if the sound have precise harmonics as guitar has.
Incidentally, a Celestion Eight-15 went in my hands so i put it inside the mustang.
This Celestion has the same chassis and the paper cone of the "fender special design" but it has bigger magnet and the surround is not "doped".

I can say that the Celestion works better than original Fender and is more general purpose than customized Visaton.
It has more hi and low extension than the fender one and has not its "boxy" sound.
Compaired to Visaton, it lacks low end but the overall tone is more balanced, all presets work well.

I don't know if the difference worth the 30 euros of his price, maybe yes...

Here some compairision pictures .
Image

Image

Image
Celestion is on the right side


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:04 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am
Posts: 824
merifon wrote:
Amp out has an equalisation that try to compensate hi freq loss of original (not so good) speaker.



LOL I tought I was the only one interested in this kind of thing. Well done!

for what it'S worth, this is the mustang 3 speaker response according to the manufacturer (Celestion)

Image

And this is the actual freq response I measured using frequency sweeps and a flat response mic:

Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:38 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Location: Calderara of Reno, Italy
Very interesting.
I'd be very curious about a response of a stock M1.
I should take a reliable measuring system... :D

The logarithmic sequence of the holes in response i guess can be result of wall reflections, do you?

To be honest, a stock M1, sounds very much better when a "real guitarist" is the source...
Despite measures, i am light years far from to be a "real guitarist" but any slight improvement can help to reduce the distance :lol:


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: