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Post subject: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:15 am
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Yesterday I compared the genuine speaker sound of my little Mustang I V2 with what I get out of the headphone jack and into my Boss CM 30 fullrange monitors. And, well, the fullrange speakers (headphones also) sound so much better. To me at least. It was a revelation: the high range is much more open and nicely crisp while the lower middles are more defined.

In live situations I go straight and stereo to PA with my GT-10 so maybe my ears are prejudiced on this type of sound.
Anyway, I personally would very much prefer if Fender equipped the Mustang range with dual cone fullrange speakers like the EMINENCE Beta 12-LT. Aux In signals would sound better, too.

What do you think?


Last edited by matthias1202 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang mit full-range speakers
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:46 am
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You are comparing Hi-Fi speakers to a guitar amp speakers so what you hear is totally expected.

The GDEC series of amps come exactly with what you are looking for: two way hi-fi speakers to be able to use the amp for backing tracks.
you might also want to try a mustang floor with the powered speakers, as this is also a common solution with people that like the hi-fi sound.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang mit full-range speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:00 am
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Hi jedi2b, thanks a lot for your reply.
What I wanted to say is that the Mustang sounds (to me at least) like it is genuinely voiced for full-range speakers output. I don’t know whether the built-in speaker simulation behaves different when connected to a guitar amp vs. headphones/full range speaker but I suppose it does not.

I think the speaker sims are built with full range output in mind and thus the output of the built in speaker is sort of a weak compromise because the speaker sims already cut off above - say - 5 kHz what the guitar speaker then cuts off once again. At least this is what my ears tell me.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang mit full-range speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:31 am
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hey,

this is definitely a question of taste, but, in general, if you take a look at other older posts about headphones, you will see that many people think that actually the headphones output sounds like crap :) exactly for the same reason you mention, output is more hi-fi with more highs.
I guess for people playing some styles of music that could be beneficial as more high harmonics will make it through (metal particularly)

On the V2 amps at least (not sure about V1's) the phones out, and the XLR outs are voiced differently than the speaker out, independently of any coloring the speaker may add (it has a spike on high-mids and cuts at 5khz, but is pretty flat for a guitar speaker).

Image

The phones and xlr outs are voiced as you mention to connect to a full range PA.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:59 pm
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Two differently voiced outputs at the same time – not bad, especially at this price point.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:55 am
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Hi everybody,

i'm trying to learn playing guitar (mission, impossible...) so i bought a little Mustang 1 V1.
I found it's sound too boxed and closed. Finding that sound from headphone output and a decent PA speaker was far more versatile and open, i decided to try a dual cone speaker.
I replace the stock speaker with this one:
Visaton BG20 8ohm 8"
Image
Is a german 21Euros decent driver with the exact dimensions, so it fitted perfectly in place.
Obviously the preset had to be readjusted (but even with the original speaker, factory sounds weren't perfect).
The result is very satisfactory, wide response allows more control options and clean sounds are miles (kilometers...) far ahead than stock.
My opinion is that a modeling amplifier should have a more neutral speaker and on this base should be easy to get wanted tones.
I'm still testing but overall impression is of a great improvement.
It' possible that i will try a Jensen CR8, to complete compairision but at the moment, dual cone was a very good solution.
Since presets are common to mustang 1 and 2, i hardly think that they are optimized for model 1, maybe a model 2 should sounds much better...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:12 am
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Hey merifon,
this sounds really good, thanks for your insight. Think I will try the BG20 with my MI v2.

Btw: Did your speaker swapping require any soldering or is it a matter of plug and play? Sorry but I’m too lazy to unscrew the back right now. And does it change the overall output level of the Mustang? I read the Visaton BG20 should be quite loud …


Last edited by matthias1202 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 pm
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The speaker fits exactly and no soldering is needed. The two fast-on on speaker wire are in two different size but Visaton speaker contacts have the exactly size.

Since back panel of Mustang is too thin and has attitude to vibrate, coloring bad some middle low frequencies, i put on it a layer of acoustic absorber, using double adhesive wide tape to leave untouched the original parts.

A good idea would be to replace back panel with another one thicker, maybe carrying a switching jack to allow more possibilities.

I tryed a half back panel also but the lower frequencies are cutted and in general no substantial improvement has been heard.

Both speakers are 8 Ohm and overall volume did not change too much. Original fender speaker had a peak in middle high, so certain tones seemed louder (but worst). Definitively, it would be necessary to switch from a speaker to another, to say wich one sounds louder.

No drills or soldering was made and 21euros worth a try...

Original speaker has a third ground yellow wire from caster to a ground screw on circuit board, you have simply to unscrew it.

I forgot to say that on the four speaker screws there is a drop of enamel, i think to fix them and prevent unscrewing. Anyway nothing of irreparable, in every house there is a transparent/red enamel...


Last edited by merifon on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 pm
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Thanks so much for your great explanation. Can’t wait to check it out!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:53 am
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Hey merifon,
my Visaton BG 20 just arrived this morning. I unscrewed the back of my Mustang I but the back panel just sticks, even with a suction cup. I haven’t yet unscrewed the power socket (do I have to?) because the screws refuse to come out.

So do you have any idea how to remove the back? I can’t wait to hear my little Mustang in all its FRFR (full range flat response) glory.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:41 am
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hey Matthias, i read that back panel is lightly glued in, so the best thing is to run a putty knife carefully and slowly around the seam.
(I'm tempted to try spkr upgrade on my MII)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:40 pm
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Did it! Gonna tell you my results tomorrow, folks.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:14 am
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Alright, dear Mustang fellows, here comes my experience with the Visatone BG20 dual cone broadband speaker.

First, it wasn’t easy to remove the back panel. It is much thicker material than I expected (approx. 6 to 7 mm) and it is glued to the box at every screw hole. The only way to get the back panel off was to drill a hole with 2 cm diameter near the bottom so I could lift the panel with the help of a screwdriver and a piece of wood as a lever support. Patience is needed but eventually the glue detaches.

Now it is time to swap the speakers which is the easiest part. Everything matches, no drilling is needed. The original speaker however has a ground connection bolted to the motherboard and soldered to the speaker. I unscrewed the ground cable and used he Visaton BG20 without it. My plan was to solder it another time when I’d be convinced the broadband speaker is in fact an enhancment to the original boxy sound of the Mustang speaker.

Then I hooked up my stereo to the aux input and it really sounded much better than before. The bass response was a bit lacking though and the treble side was a sort of aggressive around the 6kHz mark (just guessing). But with the Visaton the Mustang can very well work as a monitor for any audio source.

But when I hooked up a guitar it was immediately clear that the Mustang does in fact deliver two different voicings: a frequency corrected voicing for the headphone output plus a (probably straight) voicing for the internal speaker. I do strongly prefer the headphone voicing because the internal speaker just is not capable of reproducing a sufficient aural image of what the signal is supposed to be. Like most 8“ speakers I have heard in practice amps it sounds boxy – at least to me.

What I expected was the great headphone sound out of the new internal speaker. The sound which I am referring to is great not only via headphones but also via my Roland CM 30 Cube Monitors which are 6,5“ dual cone. But alas, this is not how it went …

Like any amp, tube or solid state alike, the Mustang power amp delivers a pure, unfiltered signal to the speakers (and thus different from the filtered headphone output). The speaker then is the de facto filter decreasing smoothly the high end sizzle. And the Visaton BG20? Well, it reproduces thoroughly everything it gets right up to 16 kHz. The result resembles any amp with a additional tweeter: a terrible high end, especially with overdriven sounds. To do it justice, with the Visaton at least the studio preamp sounds like it should by design: just like a guitar hooked up to a mixing console. With the original speaker to me it sounds like a solid state jazz box (which is also nice).

So in a nutshell: I cannot recommed a FRFR (full range flat response) speaker replacement, the Mustang is not designed for this. And that’s why I sent the Visatone back today, leaving a little round hole in the back panel that will always remind me fondly of my little experiment.

My recommendation to Fender however is: Build in a broadband speaker and feed it with the same voicing as the headphones out. It sounds better than the crappy speaker you use now and the Mustang can serve as a nice all-purpose-broadband-monitor, even while playing guitar. Hell, a 3,5" stereo link jack would be great also – I’d gladly buy two Mustangs and enjoy the stereo effects while blasting some stereo audio material through the aux input.

Greetings,
Matthias


Last edited by matthias1202 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:35 am
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Thanks for the report. Does that little hole you drilled give you an open back feel? :lol:

Eventually i might take the back off my MII for open back but probably won't bother with replacing the speaker.

_________________
YMMV

Chont's Mustang Presets


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Post subject: Re: Mustang with full-range speakers
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:51 am
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Hi Matthias and everybody,
i read just now of your unsuccessful experiment...
At this point i can think is true that there are differences between V1 and V2.

I'm sorry you had to drill to remove panel, my V1 back panel was not glued and the sound from headphone sent to a PA speaker is not response different from that sent to internal speaker: it is wide open too.

I agree that high extension speaker requires a rework of tone controls but overall results
remains better for me. Obviously it's matter of personal taste.

In conclusion i think we could say they improved the project and that V2 is better from stock than V1.

Let's hope you didn't spend too much for this effort...


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