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Post subject: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:19 am
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I've noticed a drastic difference between say, how loud the 65 Twin is compared to the HiWatt model.

I'm finding i have to goose the preset volume considerably more on the HiWatt to get a similar volume out of the power amp.

Am i missing something?

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:58 pm
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Do you have Mustang Version2? I have version 1. You may be able to adjust the hiwatt by hitting the amp button. Then hit it again to see if there is a page 2 of settings. There should be a Master volume you can set Louder. It also may depend on the effects if you are using any. I know on my amp it can be hard sometimes to get the volumes equal. especially at loud volume. But effect will also Make them louder depending on what your using.


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:55 pm
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Adrenaline wrote:
Do you have Mustang Version2? I have version 1. You may be able to adjust the hiwatt by hitting the amp button. Then hit it again to see if there is a page 2 of settings. There should be a Master volume you can set Louder. It also may depend on the effects if you are using any. I know on my amp it can be hard sometimes to get the volumes equal. especially at loud volume. But effect will also Make them louder depending on what your using.


Hi,
wait a moment. i think i know what is the point.

the master volume on HiWatt model is already to 10 by default .. probably because the output clean power is not enough and has to be tweaked.

So all you can do is raise the physical master volume on the Mustang but in that way you unbalance other presets that can be a way louder than other.

it is also for that reason i add in my wish list to Fender, the absolute need to get master volume for all the models available, not just for a few of them.. by adding a 3th page of parameters on the amp section if the space for virtual knobs is already used in some models.. an additional page will not be a problem if you can get benefits by additional parameter(s).. at this point add also the bright switch in the models where is available wouldn't be a bad idea.

In our specific case would be better even to solve the problem at the root, first.. the Hiwatt model should be powered with more output level from its preamp model.. not gain/saturation level but clean power volume of course..

The same i would say for what regards the Studio Preamp.. its master is at max by default and would be appreciate to get more clean power output from its model (for example using it with electric-acoustic guitar )to be able to balance other presets with more gain or saturation..
It is important to have a good reserve of clean power instead have to raise the general Master and unbalance all the rest.. as usually you need clean tones, crunch tones and lead tones..

Just to give an example, in Roland pedalboards (or Boss or other i don't know directly) it is possible to manage the level from the input to the output in more stages...

leaving aside the effect level, basically there are 3 stages:
volume of the amp model or better its Mic Level from the Cab sim ,
a general volume of the patch
and before the output jacks, general output level knob on the pedalboard ..
with 3 stage of regulation you can balance (or tame) the output level at will.

In the Mustang you need a first point of regulation as model Master volume (from the cleanest and low gain model to the more high gained model) and the second, the general Master volume knob on the Mustang of course.. it would be a good idea also an additional independent dry level on the modulations/delay/rev effects.. particularly useful with post amp effects.

(for the same reasons you would need also an AUX booster level input to amplify the mp3 /video player level usually totally inadequate to deal with a lead tone .. coming from any model without a Master volume.

I hope to heart that Fender will decide to do firmware updates based on these problems.. it is a kind of problems that need to be solved also in Version 1 of course. In this case Version 2 or Version 1 it makes no difference..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:01 pm
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captainc wrote:
I've noticed a drastic difference between say, how loud the 65 Twin is compared to the HiWatt model.

I'm finding i have to goose the preset volume considerably more on the HiWatt to get a similar volume out of the power amp.

Am i missing something?




Some amp models and effects are underpowered. The only thing you can do without modifying your tone is to crank up the volume physical knob on the mustang to try to equalize among your different presets (and leave the master volume alone, to control the overall max volume of ALL presets)

some of the most notable underpowered efects/amps are:
-65 Twin
-Hiwatt
-touch wah
-wah

IMO for these effects/amps a firmware patch whould add some volume range using the volume/level knob to correct for this situation


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:25 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
captainc wrote:
I've noticed a drastic difference between say, how loud the 65 Twin is compared to the HiWatt model.

I'm finding i have to goose the preset volume considerably more on the HiWatt to get a similar volume out of the power amp.

Am i missing something?




Some amp models and effects are underpowered. The only thing you can do without modifying your tone is to crank up the volume physical knob on the mustang to try to equalize among your different presets (and leave the master volume alone, to control the overall max volume of ALL presets)

some of the most notable underpowered efects/amps are:
-65 Twin
-Hiwatt
-touch wah
-wah

IMO for these effects/amps a firmware patch whould add some volume range using the volume/level knob to correct for this situation


hi ,
I see that (of course) you agree too .. here is need to add several improvements and I think add knobs volumes should not be a difficult update ..
don't forget also the Studio Preamp.. even though it is an emulation of neutral preamp this doesn't mean that it must to have so low output level.. usually the clean power is never enough..
and by the way... in the first page (in each page) of display there is the room for 6 knobs/parameters as we can see in the amp model section ..
so there is room for an additional "dry" level knob on each effect (modulations, delays and reverbs type) because with a few exceptions there are max 5 knobs available at the moment..
in Fender Fuse Tape delay and Stereo Tape delay has 6 parameters but on the Mustang display there are just 5 even bigger knobs compared to the 6 of pages amp section.

using the smaller knobs icons in every effect ,when it needs, would allow to add at least and additional parameter in the only page available for the 3 effect sections..
So, the other current level knob can become completely the "wet" level and not just the mix of direct/wet level. It would allow a greater control on the chain level..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:08 am
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In my experience you should set the channel volume for your loudest preset to 3-4 and then set the rest of your preset to sound the same.

I do this because of the usb quality recording. Everything is far better if you dont crank all the way up oyur volumes.

But this is also practical to balance high gain volumes with pure clean ones.

I know that someone use the channel volume as an overdrive, especially on the British amps, but i think this is "old way" and we have stomps, bias and sag to do a far better job.

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:42 am
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Quote:
difference between say, how loud the 65 Twin is compared to the HiWatt model

This has been discussed here before, in great depth. I wrote a long post explaining the theory, and the Fender firmware engineers gave their explanations too. Here's the main original topic:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73653

and this one covers some of the same area from a different angle:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=82926

But in brief, simple terms:

  • The perceived (by the human ear) loudness or volume of a sound depends as much on the shape of the waveform as on its amplitude; complex waves sound louder than simple waves
  • DSP amplifiers such as the Mustangs have a strict maximum amplitude, that is the same across all amp models (beyond this amplitude the DSP would be hard-clipping which no-one wants)
  • Different amp models have very different waveform shapes; simplistically, clean sounds have a simple wave, overdriven models have a more complex shape

Thus, for a given amplitude, a high-gain model will sound louder to the human ear than a clean model. As the "volume" controls on an amp are really adjusting the amplitude of the signal (and not actually its perceived volume), then different amp models set to the same "volume" will sound differently loud. Also, at maximum "volume" (ie maximum amplitude before hard-clipping), the different models will have different perceived loudness.

The Fender engineers have set the maximum "volume" (ie amplitude) for the various amp models, to a level that preserves the correct waveform without the undesirable hard-clipping (and with some headroom to allow for other effects). Thus it's not at all surprising that a clean amp model at maximum "volume" is quieter, to the human ear, than a high-gain/overdrive/distorted amp model at its maximum "volume."

Quote:
my wish list to Fender, the absolute need to get master volume for all the models available, not just for a few of them

I think the amp models have a "master volume" if the original amp being modelled had one. Its purpose is not to be a volume control in the loudness sense; it is principally to control power-amp distortion (as in, the modelled power amp behaviour within the DSP, nothing to do with the Mustang's actual power amp). All presets have an overall "volume" control; that is the correct setting to use to balance the perceived loudness between different amp models and presets, as per jedi2b's and mordor74's advice.


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:45 am
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scott-uk wrote:

Quote:
my wish list to Fender, the absolute need to get master volume for all the models available, not just for a few of them

I think the amp models have a "master volume" if the original amp being modelled had one. Its purpose is not to be a volume control in the loudness sense; it is principally to control power-amp distortion (as in, the modelled power amp behaviour within the DSP, nothing to do with the Mustang's actual power amp). All presets have an overall "volume" control; that is the correct setting to use to balance the perceived loudness between different amp models and presets, as per jedi2b's and mordor74's advice.


Hi,
i think that a power amp digital section needs that its "microscopic" current signal has to be amplified to hearing / Playing levels.. and that is the task of the real power amp..

it seems to me that acting on virtual Master Volume on high gain models or other model that has that control (i don't know the real things) you don't get additional distortion or another quality of distorsion as power amp distortion but you do get right an increase (or decrease) of the level of output while preserving the quality of the distortion or the tone obtained in the preamp.
But let's put the thing in other terms.. let's pretend we do not know what the behavior of the real things..

call it Preset or Patch (ugly word) Level as does Roland, and if you want don't call it Master Volume ...
is not important the term used, is important the function has to perform: something that adjusts or help to balance the output level of each single preset, independently, before the real power amp stage..
Simple and also common in many commercial products even not expensive.

However , i don't know whether is better the solution to have just general preset level controls or to have Master volume on all amp models and also independent output effect level parameters.. i would like this more complete solution but this should be decided by the experts bearing in mind that I'm always talking about let's say passive controls that can only reduce the level generated in the chain and never increase it beyond the optimal headroom established by the designers.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:12 am
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Thanks all.

ScottUK that's a good read thanks for sharing. I will definately try putting a post gain boost or compressoe on the HiWatt to see what it does. The bummer is that uses up my one and only stomp but that's another thread LOL

I typically set my main volume to about 3 or 4. Set my clean tone and tweak. Got a good level on my 65 twin but find I have to goose the main level up to 5 or 6 on the HW with both models being on the clean side. Not a huge deal. I'll have to double check my sag and Bias on the HW but my laptop is at work and I didn't go in today. :(

The amp handles pedals really well so got a Fuzz in front and looking to get a mild OD next

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:17 pm
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I've posted info for all of this before, but it keeps getting pushed further down the forum list.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=75417

There are THREE VOLUME CONTROLS on the Fender Mustang amplifiers.

Image

1. VOLUME
2. MASTER VOLUME
3. MASTER


#1 is the Preset Volume setting that allows you to adjust the volume of all presets relative to each other. This is found on the amp face and in FUSE right on the amp picture.

#2 is the Preset amp models' POWER AMP volume control like you'd find on most Master Volume amps. To get to this control, you have to go to Page 2 of the preset amp settings or open the ADVANCED tab in FUSE. Not all amp models are MV amps, so not every amp model will have this control. The Bassman and Plexi amp models have a BLEND control instead.

#3 is the Mustang's master Power Amp volume dial that controls the solid-state power amp inside of the Mustang. This affects ALL sound output from the amp with the only exception being the USB output. This has nothing to do with the preset or the DSP. It affects the physical power amp.

Once you know the difference, you can fix your presets.

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:46 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
I've posted info for all of this before, but it keeps getting pushed further down the forum list.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=75417

There are THREE VOLUME CONTROLS on the Fender Mustang amplifiers.

Image

1. VOLUME
2. MASTER VOLUME
3. MASTER


#1 is the Preset Volume setting that allows you to adjust the volume of all presets relative to each other. This is found on the amp face and in FUSE right on the amp picture.

#2 is the Preset amp models' POWER AMP volume control like you'd find on most Master Volume amps. To get to this control, you have to go to Page 2 of the preset amp settings or open the ADVANCED tab in FUSE. Not all amp models are MV amps, so not every amp model will have this control. The Bassman and Plexi amp models have a BLEND control instead.

#3 is the Mustang's master Power Amp volume dial that controls the solid-state power amp inside of the Mustang. This affects ALL sound output from the amp with the only exception being the USB output. This has nothing to do with the preset or the DSP. It affects the physical power amp.

Once you know the difference, you can fix your presets.


Hi,
so are you saying that Volume (#1) is simply a level control of the Preset? A preset includes not just amp model (pre + power amp + cab) but also the pre and post amp effects in the chain.

I think it is more logical to think that in that position, it is the control of output level or volume just of the Preamp section.. and everything else has nothing to do (post-amp effects primarily).

In my Roland pedalboard for example, in every model i have "gain" and "Level" (then there is also a Mic level but it is a different thing.. post cab sim) .. in the owner's manual "Level" is descripted <<Adjusts the overall volume of the preamp.( Take care not to raise LEVEL excessively)>>

I think that also in Mustang models , acting on Volume you are controlling the output level of the Preamp section and if you want to use a stompbox model (fuzz or other) before of the amp you have to raise the Volume and lower enough the Gain.. (assume that it is a model from the gain medium to low )
if Volume was a simple overall preset level (the equivalent of Roland's patch level) it would have no effect on the quality and amount of distortion.. or crunch by changing the settings of the Volume, while maintaining the same low value of gain.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:50 pm
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That's all fine and dandy and I get the 3 stages of gain stages but my point is simply this. With Fairly identical setting, my clean 65 twin whispers compared to my HiWatt preset. I may be mistaken but HiWatts supposedly have a reputation of being paint peeling loud. So the preset volume shouldn't have to be on 10 to get to a volume that is still less than what my 65 twin is doing on a preset vol of 6.

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:13 pm
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frondizi wrote:
Hi,
so are you saying that Volume (#1) is simply a level control of the Preset? A preset includes not just amp model (pre + power amp + cab) but also the pre and post amp effects in the chain.

I think it is more logical to think that in that position, it is the control of output level or volume just of the Preamp section.. and everything else has nothing to do (post-amp effects primarily).

In my Roland pedalboard for example, in every model i have "gain" and "Level" (then there is also a Mic level but it is a different thing.. post cab sim) .. in the owner's manual "Level" is descripted <<Adjusts the overall volume of the preamp.( Take care not to raise LEVEL excessively)>>

I think that also in Mustang models , acting on Volume you are controlling the output level of the Preamp section and if you want to use a stompbox model (fuzz or other) before of the amp you have to raise the Volume and lower enough the Gain.. (assume that it is a model from the gain medium to low )
if Volume was a simple overall preset level (the equivalent of Roland's patch level) it would have no effect on the quality and amount of distortion.. or crunch by changing the settings of the Volume, while maintaining the same low value of gain.

Dimitri


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Fender's own engineers and their documentation state as much. Volume #1 is ONLY a preset leveler. It controls the overall volume coming out of the DSP.

The DSP models the entire amp. This includes pre-amp distortion AND power-amp distortion - all within the DSP chip. This has nothing to do with the solid-state power amplifier that pushes the speakers on the Mustang amp itself. Don't get them confused.

The Fender Mustang IS NOT A NORMAL AMP and you cannot think of it as such. Your guitar input goes into a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) chip that alters the guitar's audio signal in multiple steps. The controls for this modeling are done like a real amps' controls would work. That's the whole point of "modeling" the amps.

GAIN has always been the "volume control" for the PREAMP of a guitar amplifier. Anytime you see a GAIN knob, that's your preamp. It doesn't ever change. ALL amps modeled inside the Fender Mustang have a GAIN knob. On the old Marshall Plexi amps and the Fender Bassman, you had two Volume knobs. Those are actually "Gain" knobs - one for each channel on the amp. That's why the Mustang has a Blend knob in addition to the Gain knob. The Gain knob would set the pre-amp volume and the Blend knob would tell the Mustang how much of each Volume control was being used as a blend between the two channels.

The Power-amp of the amp modeled in the DSP is controlled by the "Master Volume" control under the Advanced tab in FUSE. Again, this is INSIDE the DSP. Amp models that don't normally come with a Master Volume control (like the Bassman and the Plexi) won't have this Master Volume control.

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:22 pm
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captainc wrote:
That's all fine and dandy and I get the 3 stages of gain stages but my point is simply this. With Fairly identical setting, my clean 65 twin whispers compared to my HiWatt preset. I may be mistaken but HiWatts supposedly have a reputation of being paint peeling loud. So the preset volume shouldn't have to be on 10 to get to a volume that is still less than what my 65 twin is doing on a preset vol of 6.


Yes, i completely agree with you.
HiWatt must have the grit of a Marshall and better sonic characters because it is definitely a much better project, initially based on a Marshall vintage type..
an old Italian guitarist described to me on his experience the Hiwatt simply as a "marshall improved"

By the way... which channel is supposed to be simulated by this model?
i guess Brilliant channel..
however to better reflect the real thing, it could be updated not just tweaking the amount of gain/output level but also adding a Blend parameter including Normal channel and to be able to mix 2 channels as Gilmour seems to do as base for his sound.

And as I already said I think the same error of assessment was made for the Studio Preamp .. It is not possible that its default volume must be already at 10 by default.. a little something is not right.. it is a little too weak.

Dimitri


Last edited by frondizi on Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Gain Staging between different amp models
Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:08 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Fender's own engineers and their documentation state as much. Volume #1 is ONLY a preset leveler. It controls the overall volume coming out of the DSP.


Hi,
where did you find that documentation? i would like to read it.. i guess is not the advanced manual we can download..

If it is a preset leveler then a post amp delay effect with an high rate feedback should be muted if you set suddenly the Volume at 1 instead to continue to hear the echo repeats... i'll do this simple test tomorrow checking to have delay really in post amp position..



EDIT:
yes, i ascertained that Volume is actually the general preset level so you can adjust the final output level generated by distortion + amp gain stages + effects..

However, we cannot deny that seeing a knob "Volume" next to "Gain" may mislead those who don't have experience with a real tube amp with no master volume.
May come to mind wrongly, that "Volume" may act as a a Master Volume of the model .. or as output level from Preamp section ( and pratically the input level to power amp stage) as Roland systems do.. unfortunately i used as reference my good knowledges of Roland products..

Since it has nothing to do with the amp model, Maybe it was better to put this level control presets on the right, next to the knob "Reverb".

More simply, certainly should be pointed out on the user guide (quick start and advanced) that control acts on the general level of the preset output ..

Could you show me where i can read those additional informations and documentation you mentioned, please? usually i like to know well the functions of a product (even when they are manuals with dozens and dozens of pages (Roland))

Dimitri


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