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Post subject: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:24 am
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Hi,

I just bought an Mustang 3. After trying a lot of amps I decided to get a digital modeling amp because they offer more flexibility for me as a beginner looking for a certain sound. The final draw was between the Roland Cube and Fender Mustang, I decided for the Mustang because it offers much MUCH more functionality but my personal opinion is that the Roland sounds better but that's just a personal opinion from a beginner.

Anyhow I've been playing with it and until now I just love it, just 3 things, the first two are about user interface and are generally the same.

1) It would help alot if the amp could be controlled from a tablet. Maybe WiFi connectivity and an app. Being able to control from a touch screen would certainly make it much easier when looking for "that sound" and you need to constantly adjust the settings. Having a PC or Laptop nearby everytime you want to adjust the settings is a limitations, a tablet would certainly ease this up and would make the system more mobile.

2) More knobs. The Roland Cube had more knobs to play with but on the other hand the Roland didn't have nearly as much functionality. Having more knobs would again make it easier to adjust your amp to "that sound".

3) Looper. The Roland Cube has a built-in Looper. Not a really big issues but it would complete the overall package. For me as a beginner just having spent a lot of money on a new amp and guitar yet again investing in pedals is hard, specially when you're on a budget. If this amp would have a looper (just a software thing as long as you have enough memory on your uC) it would be the choice for somebody who's still looking and experimenting because it would have the complete package of pedals and amp modeling needed.

I'll try to update my experiences as a I go along maybe help people out who are in the same situation as me. For now, bye. ;)


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:56 pm
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Quote:
controlled from a tablet. Maybe WiFi connectivity and an app

If you have an Apple or Windows tablet, there is already an App: Fender FUSE. There is no wi-fi, but a USB cable isn't too onerous, is it?

Quote:
More knobs

Just curious, what knobs specifically do you want? The Mustang 3 has quite a few knobs, plus the 'data wheel' that gives you access to (virtual) knobs for just about every other setting possible.

Quote:
Looper

I suppose it's a question of how many features they can put in the box at a certain price. It's easy to add an external looper, at moderate additional cost, to a Mustang 3, 4 or 5 in the amp's effects loop.


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:23 pm
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I certainly like the looper idea, and having the looper inside would solve some issues. But most uCs have limited RAM, and a looper would eat up what little memory there is pretty fast. Let's say a PCM stream at 16 bits in stereo at 44.1 K would use 176,400 bytes per second. A lot of uCs would be happy to have 32 kbytes of RAM, i.e. 32,000 bytes. Encoding it to save RAM would, on the other hand, tax the CPU.

And, frankly, IMHO 'looking for "that sound" and you need to constantly adjust the settings' is a strange way to use the Mustangs. First of all, this isn't the space shuttle. It's not THAT tweakable. Secondly, you're better off using some focused programming sessions to create some very different core presets with different amp models, that react well to the guitar volume knob and playing dynamics so you can go all the way from clean to distorto, and with some appropriate effects that you turn down to 0 as the default, so you can raise them with the MOD and DLY/REV knobs (while pressing EXIT) at play time. That way you can focus on playing and save your head scratching for programming sessions.


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:08 pm
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Hi FernandR,
i agree with you.
If someone want to use ipad or similar apple products to do music he has to use iRig gear or other designed to work with apple products..
perhaps Roland is enough futuristic that could think to do such wireless remote controlling..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:52 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
If you have an Apple or Windows tablet, there is already an App: Fender FUSE. There is no wi-fi, but a USB cable isn't too onerous, is it?


I own neither, have an Android tablet however. ;)

Quote:
Just curious, what knobs specifically do you want? The Mustang 3 has quite a few knobs, plus the 'data wheel' that gives you access to (virtual) knobs for just about every other setting possible.


It's the difference between just reaching for a knob and tweaking it and having to go through menu's. Maybe have a set of assignable knobs just like the expression pedal.

Quote:
I suppose it's a question of how many features they can put in the box at a certain price. It's easy to add an external looper, at moderate additional cost, to a Mustang 3, 4 or 5 in the amp's effects loop.


It's not that easy, if they want todo it real-time then some hardware is required too.

Quote:
I certainly like the looper idea, and having the looper inside would solve some issues. But most uCs have limited RAM, and a looper would eat up what little memory there is pretty fast. Let's say a PCM stream at 16 bits in stereo at 44.1 K would use 176,400 bytes per second. A lot of uCs would be happy to have 32 kbytes of RAM, i.e. 32,000 bytes. Encoding it to save RAM would, on the other hand, tax the CPU.


Well I'm not sure what hardware is in there, I'm guessing some FPGA or a programmable DSP type something but they can always add more RAM through mapping or a memcontroller. Also not to forget how many channels does the mixer support, if it's just a single channel mixer or a softmixer which loads the main CPU then that can lead to further difficulties but that's just tech detail which isn't the reason why we are here. I don't think Fender will magically add new features to a released product even if it was possible. They'll hold off on it till a new line.

FernandR wrote:
And, frankly, IMHO 'looking for "that sound" and you need to constantly adjust the settings' is a strange way to use the Mustangs. First of all, this isn't the space shuttle. It's not THAT tweakable. Secondly, you're better off using some focused programming sessions to create some very different core presets with different amp models, that react well to the guitar volume knob and playing dynamics so you can go all the way from clean to distorto, and with some appropriate effects that you turn down to 0 as the default, so you can raise them with the MOD and DLY/REV knobs (while pressing EXIT) at play time. That way you can focus on playing and save your head scratching for programming sessions.


One of the reasons I bought this amp is that it allows me to experiment with different amp (emulations), pedals and filters without having to go out and buy new hardware everytime I want to try something new. I'm sure that's how the "pro's" do it but I'm just a beginner at best so I'm still just looking around and discovering what's possible. This means that during my playing sessions (which I do everyday) I'll sometimes radically change everything, gradually ramp up something or just change things for fun to see what happens. Usually it's crap but sometimes I discover things which are rather nice to the ear.

frondizi wrote:
Hi FernandR,
i agree with you.
If someone want to use ipad or similar apple products to do music he has to use iRig gear or other designed to work with apple products..
perhaps Roland is enough futuristic that could think to do such wireless remote controlling..

Dimitri


Roland doesn't have built-in WiFi either. They only have a looper.


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:31 pm
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One33Seven wrote:


Roland doesn't have built-in WiFi either. They only have a looper.


Hi,
yes i know these things .. by the way..
over time i had: boss GT-5 , Roland VG88, GR33 and at today in addition to Mustang 3 v2 i have a GR55 guitar synth /instrument-amp modeler and multieffect.. there is the looper and also a music player to play along with songs.. (Wav or AIFF in USB key.. no mp3)
however Roland is so "crazy" that embedded futuristic controllers in VG99 like the touch ribbon as in some synthetizer keyboard and laser beam controller to change in real time a parameter for example going up and down with a hand over the beam (in similar way like you do with a Theremin) or to trigger an effect as soon as you stop and release the beam..
i wasn't interested to that strange applications, useful mostly for show.. but if i would ask to Roland some improvements really i would ask one o two additional knobs on the controller of GK3 pickup.. to emulate and manage properly the functions of a guitar you need at least volume and tone knobs.. so 2 knobs. there has always been a single knob in GK series pickups.


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:58 am
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Quote:
It's not that easy, if they want todo it real-time then some hardware is required too.

I'm not sure I understand. Other than the looper itself, and cables, what other hardware is required? From my understanding, loopers work fine in real-time in the fx-loop without any further hardware - or am I missing something?


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:35 am
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Regarding the looper, is deja vu all over again :) a long time ago I sent a suggestion to Fender but never got response.

this is how it goes: the idea is to be able to use FUSE as a looper software application. this is not rocket science, there a re a number of free softwares out there capable of doing it (in the end a looper is only about playback, mixing and recording, with support for an external controller to start and stop)

-from a connectivity perspective, nothing new, USB connection from the mustang to the PC and audio back from the PC to the mustang AUX-in
-for control (and this is the one thing you can NOT do with any freeware application as Mobius) the idea would be to be able to use the mustang footswitch as a looper controller. The PC can receive the footswitch commands via the USB connection and do the record/playback/overdub thing with just one or two buttons as most simple loopers do

all this would require minimum firmware development (just to be able to put the mustang in a looper mode to send the footswitch commands through USB) and a bit of Fuse dev (add the capability of recording and overdub, as it already has the capability for backtrack playback)

nice and easy. Good for Fender because they can avoid one of the shortcomings of their mustang products (no looper) and good for users because they need not to expend an extra dollar to get a basic looper (with the extra bonus that a Fuse based looper will only be limited on record length by the capacity of your hardrive, unless the pedal based loopers than only can record a minute or so)


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:09 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
It's not that easy, if they want todo it real-time then some hardware is required too.

I'm not sure I understand. Other than the looper itself, and cables, what other hardware is required? From my understanding, loopers work fine in real-time in the fx-loop without any further hardware - or am I missing something?


We are talking about a looper implemented on the amp itself so an external pedal isn't required.

jedi2b wrote:
Regarding the looper, is deja vu all over again :) a long time ago I sent a suggestion to Fender but never got response.

this is how it goes:

* SNIP SNIP *


Unfortunately it's not as easy as that. ;) Your PC hardware is far from real-time and the USB bus is nothing near real-time (real fast yes but not real-time). This means if you were todo it through the FUSE software or over the USB bus there's going to be synchronization problems. If you have a low-end PC this will result in stuttering in the playback, even if you gave a high-end PC the USB bus doesn't give you any time guarantees this can lead to the track falling out of sync or yet again stuttering in the playback. Having the looper on the PC through USB is strongly dependent on your PC hardware and thus is something Fender doesn't have any control over. User experience may strongly differ.

If they want to offer a consistent user experience then they have to implement it on the amp itself and this means memory, memory, memory, memory and some extra hardware. Maybe it's possible on our current amps, I don't know but it's certainly something worth considering for future product updates.


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:42 pm
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I understand your idea but I have to disagree, based on my experience.

I DO use my PC as a looper using the aforementioned physical setup (USB + aux-in, etc) and using an excellent freeware called Mobius (probably the best looper around, including the hardware based ones).
I use a midi controller to control start and stop of the looper, but I would like to be able to use the mustang pedal if possible (less hardware)

The pc I use is a cheap gateway model 4 years old, with no issues whatsoever, the lag induced in the path is of around 10-20 msec, undetectable for my style of playing.

Another example of a software based looper (and a paying one in this case) that works pretty well in the same context is Guitar Rig 5. In that example not only the PC does the looper but also the whole emulation chain!

In the case of the mustang floor, it can be used as a midi controller to control a PC based looper (is what I use) but in the case of the Mustang amps. as there is no way of configuring the amp to become a midi controller, if at least Fuse could interpret the footswitches that would be enough (more immediate and cheaper than a hardware based solution, which as you mention takes a lot of hardware to work properly). The software solution would of course be a best-effort solution (as any other DAW and/or software based rig)


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Post subject: Re: Few suggestions for future products
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:38 am
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If someone wants to fully explore the effects, then having a PC hooked up would be the best way. It's just that I don't find these effects all that interesting. Using a DAW with plugins, including Guitar Rig, is much more powerful.

It would be smart for Fender to provide some software hooks into the amp, and then people could code up some cool stuff. For instance Fender could provide a ready-made little VST that would send and receive signals with the Mustang. Then you could tie it into other software, and e.g. use a pedal or button on the Mustang to start/stop a looper running on the PC, etc etc. Given documentation of the data stream people could create alternative editors, and all sorts of "toys".


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