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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:48 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Location: Here In Oregon
FernandR wrote:
Wow, that Aviator must be some amp. I have a Vintage 1965 Fender Twin, a Mustang I V1 and a Mustang II v2. I use the Mustangs in "occasional greener grass" mode: I set 'em up with a few presets and play 'em much like a set of standard amps. Every once in a while, I start dreaming of the greener grass elsewhere, so I tweak those presets, or create a new set, then go back to just using them, with the panel knobs being tweak enough.

The point being that amps are just amps, it's not rocket science. Guitars are not cerebral devices. That's a potential downside of modeling amps: a sort of impedance mismatch, like drummers getting sucked into studying counterpoint, bound to cause some frustration.

I can't imagine spending much time "chained to a laptop", let alone getting frustrated seeking the holy grail. But I'd hate to trade the liberty of my occasional greener grass reprogramming sessions for just one mode, no matter how nice. My tube Twin does what it does just fine, as it has for over 40 years; sounds great, not at all temperamental. But if I had to give up one of these three, I don't think it would be a mustang ;-)


My sentiments almost exactly. Also, I will be selling one of my two 65 Deluxe Reverbs and most likely getting another Stang in a different size and configuration. The Twin patch is all I use though and it takes my pedals beautifully.

Also ,

1. I like hearing good tone at lower volumes.
2. I am sick and tired of replacing tubes.
3. Every time I fire up my tube amps I sense all of those light bulbs coming on and it is not green and it sometimes hinders me from taking a short practice.
4. Tube amps have to warm up a bit to sound good.
5. The Stangs are so much lighter and portable.
6. Less noise from the Mustangs

I could go on and on..............................................

Here In Oregon

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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:12 pm
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HIO wrote:
FernandR wrote:
Wow, that Aviator must be some amp. I have a Vintage 1965 Fender Twin, a Mustang I V1 and a Mustang II v2. I use the Mustangs in "occasional greener grass" mode: I set 'em up with a few presets and play 'em much like a set of standard amps. Every once in a while, I start dreaming of the greener grass elsewhere, so I tweak those presets, or create a new set, then go back to just using them, with the panel knobs being tweak enough.

The point being that amps are just amps, it's not rocket science. Guitars are not cerebral devices. That's a potential downside of modeling amps: a sort of impedance mismatch, like drummers getting sucked into studying counterpoint, bound to cause some frustration.

I can't imagine spending much time "chained to a laptop", let alone getting frustrated seeking the holy grail. But I'd hate to trade the liberty of my occasional greener grass reprogramming sessions for just one mode, no matter how nice. My tube Twin does what it does just fine, as it has for over 40 years; sounds great, not at all temperamental. But if I had to give up one of these three, I don't think it would be a mustang ;-)


My sentiments almost exactly. Also, I will be selling one of my two 65 Deluxe Reverbs and most likely getting another Stang in a different size and configuration. The Twin patch is all I use though and it takes my pedals beautifully.

Also ,

1. I like hearing good tone at lower volumes.
2. I am sick and tired of replacing tubes.
3. Every time I fire up my tube amps I sense all of those light bulbs coming on and it is not green and it sometimes hinders me from taking a short practice.
4. Tube amps have to warm up a bit to sound good.
5. The Stangs are so much lighter and portable.
6. Less noise from the Mustangs

I could go on and on..............................................

Here In Oregon


Fair enough, guys.
I'm still trying not to promote another manufacturer's product here, but on these points;
Quote:
1. I like hearing good tone at lower volumes.

I get that from the Aviator.

Quote:
2. I am sick and tired of replacing tubes.

Me too.

Quote:
3. Every time I fire up my tube amps I sense all of those light bulbs coming on and it is not green and it sometimes hinders me from taking a short practice.

Got a Laney Cub 10... same feeling at times. It's got a microphonic tube that I tried to replace but the replacements were more noisy. Tubes feel like a total crap shoot sometimes.

Quote:
4. Tube amps have to warm up a bit to sound good.

True. The Aviator and the Mustang are instant-on.

Quote:
5. The Stangs are so much lighter and portable.

Also true, My amp actually hasn't been released yet so I can't tell you which one it is (I promised) but it's definitely lighter than my MII

Quote:
6. Less noise from the Mustangs


The Aviators aren't high gain metal amps by any stretch but even with the gain cranked, it's eerily quiet by comparison. The reverb's a little hissy though

Quote:
I could go on and on..............................................

Me too...

The take away for me was that I found that I only ever used two sounds on my Mustang - clean and dirty. I spent hours upon hours (not consecutively of course) experimenting with settings to get the sounds and more importantly, to me, the feel I like. Tone shaping is hardly ever a problem for me unless the EQ is inadequate. Feel is quite another matter. Huge kudos to Fender for paying attention to this - one of the very few companies who "get it". Still, it took some doing and lots of experimentation for me to get the feel I wanted for the clean and dirty sounds.

When I turned on the Aviator, it just felt right. It felt like a stable tube amp.... except that there are no tubes.

I needed a bit more headroom than the MII had for some gigs. Most of the time I can mic the amp but there have been some impromptu jams that wouldn't allow it. I thought about the new MIII but it still has the same plastic connectors as the lesser Mustangs. This was also another concern I had when gigging with the MII.
I kept hoping for a pro-level MIII made with plywood and with metal connectors but alas...

I took a chance on the Aviator because if in 30 days I decided that I didn't like it, they'll pay for the shipping to take it back.

Peace,
O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:28 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
The take away for me was that I found that I only ever used two sounds on my Mustang - clean and dirty.


That's fair enough I think, from the demos I heard that amp sounds like a twin, maybe a bit more trebbly, but in any case if somebody does not need variety, an emulation amp probably is not the way to go. In that case many inexpensive solid state amps may be a good choice, including the ones from Fender and others.

In the case of the mustangs I would not go below the M3 for several reasons, the most important that I think a guitar amp with a speaker smaller than 12" just does not sound right to me.

In terms of weight and portability I do not think one can go way below the weight of the mustangs without compromising sound quality and/or durability as 90% of the weight is the speaker and the cabinet itself... I do not expect the electronic PCBs to make any substantial difference.

I agree that the cheapo plastic connectors on the mustangs are an unnecesary liability (altough I never had issues myself after 2 years of use, but I understand that they are not stage-proof)

Tube amps with technology and designs from the 1940's selling at 2000$ in 2013 are nonsense, very soon they are going to be reserved to a minuscule minority.


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:01 am
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:16 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
I am hesitant to post things about another manufacturer's product on a Fender forum so If you don't mind, when I have the time, I'll PM you my findings. Is that cool?

Hey, O. -
I think that is very cool indeed, and shows a great deal of courtesy and respect for Fender and this forum. If you don't mind, could you copy me via PM with your comments? I'm vitally interested. I don't have any plans to go away from my Mustang III V.1 and V.2 amps, but I would like to hear them compared to other new, solid state, non-modeling amps. I'm always open to hearing something different.

The thing I liked immediately about the Mustang series was the variety and quality of onboard effects and tones, and the ability to customize them easily. I fully understand your desire to get away from the modeling/tweaking headaches, but every time I think of going back to using tube amps exclusively (I was always a Mesa Boogie guy) I remember all the pedals, effects, and cables necessary to get them to sound just right. I don't miss any of that! I'll even go so far as to say that the Mustang is making me a better guitar player simply because it is so easy to dial up a new tone that reminds me of a song/riff I don't already know how to play, and I wind up playing longer!

As far as what you've added about your reasoning in trying out the Aviator, I can relate to the fact that, no, almost nobody uses more than just a few presets out of the many available, but there is always the guy for whom "Autumns End Scars" is the Holy Grail he's been searching for, so I'm happy it's there for him!

I think what Fender has managed to accomplish in such a convenient, great-sounding, and low-cost package is nothing short of remarkable, and is fully consistent with their reputation for designing the best amps popular music has seen.

Everyone's mileage will vary on this one :D !

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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:19 am
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jedi2b wrote:

That's fair enough I think, from the demos I heard that amp sounds like a twin, maybe a bit more trebbly, but in any case if somebody does not need variety, an emulation amp probably is not the way to go. In that case many inexpensive solid state amps may be a good choice, including the ones from Fender and others.

Well, except that most inexpensive solid state amps do not feel the way the Aviator feels. I don't even know if one exists other than the Aviator

Quote:
In the case of the mustangs I would not go below the M3 for several reasons, the most important that I think a guitar amp with a speaker smaller than 12" just does not sound right to me.

Remember that the MII has a 12" speaker also.

Quote:
Tube amps with technology and designs from the 1940's selling at 2000$ in 2013 are nonsense, very soon they are going to be reserved to a minuscule minority.

Indeed!

O.


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:35 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
Remember that the MII has a 12" speaker also.


LOL in my head the M2 had a 10", good point. In that case the M2 is back in my recommended amp list :). A 100 watts amps is only slightly louder than a 40 watts amps all other things equal (particularly the speaker)

The amp you mention is a D class amp based on mosfet transistors. Mosfets saturate and clip in a way that is kind of intermediate between silicon transistors (harsh and bad) and vacuum tubes. They have been around for a while and are regularly used for hifi amps. The other advantage of class D amplifier is that they use small switching power supplies (kind of PC like) which helps to keep cost and weight down.

To give you an idea take a look at the size of this 150 watts class D Crate amp :)
http://www.crateamps.com/pdf/manuals/CPB150_OM.pdf actually the logo is half of the amp!


I know many jazz players prefer class D amplifiers, with the right speaker an amp this kind could be warmed a bit I guess. Pushed into slight saturation they would probably make a good blues amp. This video could give you guys an idea of a class D amp clean and in saturation (2:40 mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvFS7wmlVe0


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:19 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Orcatraz wrote:
Remember that the MII has a 12" speaker also.


LOL in my head the M2 had a 10", good point. In that case the M2 is back in my recommended amp list :). A 100 watts amps is only slightly louder than a 40 watts amps all other things equal (particularly the speaker)

The amp you mention is a D class amp based on mosfet transistors. Mosfets saturate and clip in a way that is kind of intermediate between silicon transistors (harsh and bad) and vacuum tubes. They have been around for a while and are regularly used for hifi amps. The other advantage of class D amplifier is that they use small switching power supplies (kind of PC like) which helps to keep cost and weight down.

To give you an idea take a look at the size of this 150 watts class D Crate amp :)
http://www.crateamps.com/pdf/manuals/CPB150_OM.pdf actually the logo is half of the amp!


I know many jazz players prefer class D amplifiers, with the right speaker an amp this kind could be warmed a bit I guess. Pushed into slight saturation they would probably make a good blues amp.


I don't want to get into an argument about all this but I really do believe that you only have part of the picture regarding the Quilter amps. They did not go the usual route in the design of these amps. It really is an unusual approach to guitar amplification. The power rating of these amps is talked about too much on the net in my opinion and it's really just a "means to an end" for the sound of the amp. The power amp section is designed to have so much power so as to keep it from distorting. As it was explained to me, the power amp is actually a 200 watt RMS (300 peak) unit but the preamp's output is designed to keep the power amp's mean output from exceeding 100 watts. I believe that the way they approached it is to try to recreate the sound and response of a tube amp's preamp and power amp via the Aviator's preamp section only. In a way, it's similar to the approach fender took with the Mustang only without the modeling and using analog circuits with a much more powerful amplifier. I don't think the Crate amp is near this ballpark design-wise.

I had some serious doubts about this product too and far be it for me to tell you to go and try one. But I will say that with all amplifiers (and guitars), playing one in person is the only way to go. I take every internet clip I hear with copious amounts of salt and make my decision only after I've used the amp or guitar.

I do miss the idea of the possibilities in the Mustangs and I'll probably end up getting a Floor at the end of the summer. I can only hope that there is a way to transfer all of my MII patches to it as I do not look forward to having to recreate them.

Maybe all this apprehension about patch tweaking has been brought on by my owning a Boss GT-8. While it's not as much of a royal pain in the keester as the GT-5 was... it's still a pain in the keester to tweak. Thank Buddha that Fuse exists for the Mustangs!!

O.


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:49 pm
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the Mustang 2 (v1) presets will work as they are on a M Floor, you will only need to adjust once the output voicing to your power amp (for a HiFi like power amp with flat response the PA settings should be fine).
Actually one of the presets I use the most is your suggestion of a princeton + post amp compressor, so I guess your other presets are worth keeping alive if they are as good as that one :P

Call it laziness , but actually at this point my M Floor is the only piece of equipment ever to leave my basement other than my strat. ) it takes me 45 seconds to setup using a PA to the amazement and disgust of my band colleagues.


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:17 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
Call it laziness , but actually at this point my M Floor is the only piece of equipment ever to leave my basement other than my strat. ) it takes me 45 seconds to setup using a PA to the amazement and disgust of my band colleagues.


LOL!!! Love it, and it is not laziness it is smarts. Also, if the PA has a good monitoring system you will hear yourself in the context of the mix much better and your back and ears will continually thank you for it.

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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:43 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
the Mustang 2 (v1) presets will work as they are on a M Floor, you will only need to adjust once the output voicing to your power amp (for a HiFi like power amp with flat response the PA settings should be fine).
Actually one of the presets I use the most is your suggestion of a princeton + post amp compressor, so I guess your other presets are worth keeping alive if they are as good as that one :P


Ha ha. Glad you like that preset. It's still my fave on the stang.


Quote:
Call it laziness , but actually at this point my M Floor is the only piece of equipment ever to leave my basement other than my strat. ) it takes me 45 seconds to setup using a PA to the amazement and disgust of my band colleagues.

I think HIO is right. It's not laziness, it's smarts but maybe... smarts breeds laziness. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:40 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
I think HIO is right. It's not laziness, it's smarts but maybe... smarts breeds laziness. :lol:


Well yes that could be true. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:45 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
HIO wrote:
Oh and by the way, there's not much in the way of tweakability in the Aviator. I got the response (feel) and sounds I need pretty much at the git-go.


And *that's* how you can tell it's a good amp. Congratulations.


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Post subject: Re: Bye-Bye Little MII
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:26 am
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Thanks, InkStained!

O :D


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