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Post subject: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:07 am
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Hello Fender,

Based on some of the posts I’ve been reading about artifacts due to overloading the A/D converters on the mustang amps I thought of a possible suggestion. Perhaps a firmware patch could be written that could purpose the Tuner/Mod LED or Tap Button to act as a clip light while setting Gain and Preset volume. If you are overloading the Front end, it goes red, you can back the Gain/Volume down accordingly. Could be a very useful feature and clear up some unnecessary issues.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:43 am
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captainc wrote:
Hello Fender,

Based on some of the posts I’ve been reading about artifacts due to overloading the A/D converters on the mustang amps I thought of a possible suggestion. Perhaps a firmware patch could be written that could purpose the Tuner/Mod LED or Tap Button to act as a clip light while setting Gain and Preset volume. If you are overloading the Front end, it goes red, you can back the Gain/Volume down accordingly. Could be a very useful feature and clear up some unnecessary issues.


Well, except that those LEDs are single color LEDs. They'd have to be switched out for tricolor ones. It might also get confusing if the LED is currently being used to indicate that a mod effect is active. The Mustang's really need High and Low input jacks such as those found in some tube amplifiers. For now, I think one of these might help.
- http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/radial-engineering-tonebone-dragster-guitar-wireless-load-correction-device

O.


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:14 am
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The Line6 Ax212 has a input clip light that lights up when your input is too hot. One red LED which is sufficient. Shouldn't be too confusing if it were set up as an alt function to check input level. Like holding down the exit button to get a mid knob. Put it in the appropriate mode and adjust your input level. Tap or Save Button can be used too which is green or red or off if we need more than one color to avoid confusion. Once your input is set, exit out of the input meter mode and you have your tap button back.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:57 pm
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A clip-button is a really good idea.

One thing I want is more cabs! :) More hi-gain cabs, I find the M- and V-stacks kind of dull (lacks clarity and balls), the greenback is by far the best hi-gain cab.


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:17 pm
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captainc wrote:
The Line6 Ax212 has a input clip light that lights up when your input is too hot. One red LED which is sufficient. Shouldn't be too confusing if it were set up as an alt function to check input level. Like holding down the exit button to get a mid knob. Put it in the appropriate mode and adjust your input level. Tap or Save Button can be used too which is green or red or off if we need more than one color to avoid confusion. Once your input is set, exit out of the input meter mode and you have your tap button back.



actually I think the easy solution would be to flash one of the following buttons when cliping occurs, either:
-the EXIT button. Normally unused while playing. but may be confused with the TAP tempo from far away.
-the SAVE button, normally on and RED only if the preset has been modified, could be confusing unless it flashes fast when clipping occurs, but would be the more visible option
-The UTIL button. normally on only when in UTIL mode, unused while playing

or even better make the tree of them to flash at the same time!

So if things start to sound quite bad while playing you may take a quick look at the buttons to see if they flash, if they do, you just back off the guitar volume. nice and easy, and we do not need to wait for the Mustang V3! :)


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:33 pm
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I like it. :D

and for those of us using External Pedals, huge help to indicate gain staging From pedal to mustang

The only gotcha with using the Save button i can see is if you are setting preset and gain level it will automatically light red because you've altered the preset. But clearly there are great options here.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:25 am
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Hi folks,
as already exists a LCD window for the tuner function, i think that the best solution would be to include similarly a kind of simple VU meter showing the input level and the point of clipping.. but i don't know how it could be active and together be able to do the change in gain except the case of guitar volume or an external effect before the guitar input...
(Roland has it to calibrate accurately input level from every single string using their GK exaphonic pickups but also piezo pickups ... and in fact to prevent digital clipping on next stages )

@Orcatraz,
by the way... i have already write to technician of Radialeng company to explain our problems in details so much discussed in Fender Forum.. and to have an opinion (if possible from direct experience) if this Tonebone Dragster could somehow solve them..
i will back on forum as soon as i get the answser from him..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:01 am
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frondizi wrote:
as already exists a LCD window for the tuner function, i think that the best solution would be to include similarly a kind of simple VU meter showing the input level and the point of clipping..

Not all models have a display:

Image

I like the idea of having multiple buttons flash, it would look like a warning.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:50 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
frondizi wrote:
as already exists a LCD window for the tuner function, i think that the best solution would be to include similarly a kind of simple VU meter showing the input level and the point of clipping..

Not all models have a display:

Image

I like the idea of having multiple buttons flash, it would look like a warning.


Hi,
yes .. you're right! i had completely forgotten the Mustang1 e M. 2 models without display..
in that case perhaps by a display on Fender Fuse: like for advanced settings you would have to do the optimizzation of the right value/ levels of presets at home (if you don't have a notebook to bring with you) ..

about the multiple buttons flashing, you mean 3 buttons (save, exit e tap) that flash at the same time? might work too, but it would be a little coarse and would require several attempts to find the optimal threshold level, neither too high nor too low.

Another idea could be use the 3 led of tuner in M.1 e M.2 to read 3 kind of input level.. too low, optimal , too high , in M.3-5 use instead the display of tuner in a similar way..

Or , if we want a more accurate reading of value.. could be.. in M.1 e M.2 use the 8 led of presets like a VU meter (in fact they resemble right a Vu meter) and in M.3-5 use the display of tuner with a wider scale than just 3 values .. in these last cases Fender fuse wouldn't be even required.

oh well i'm too creative... i do not lack immagination .. perhaps the problem is for those who must putting it into practice :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:29 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
So if things start to sound quite bad while playing you may take a quick look at the buttons to see if they flash, if they do, you just back off the guitar volume. nice and easy, and we do not need to wait for the Mustang V3! :)


Hopefully a possible Mustang V3 series must be with the hard clipping problems fixed mainly.. not just with added feature of a clip indicator or level display :wink:

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:07 pm
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frondizi wrote:
jedi2b wrote:
So if things start to sound quite bad while playing you may take a quick look at the buttons to see if they flash, if they do, you just back off the guitar volume. nice and easy, and we do not need to wait for the Mustang V3! :)


Hopefully a possible Mustang V3 series must be with the hard clipping problems fixed mainly.. not just with added feature of a clip indicator or level display :wink:

Dimitri


Even if they put a brick wall limiter before the A/D, a meter of some sort is a great idea. In fact, it's almost MORE useful if there is a brickwall limiter, since without any digital overload artifacts at any level, you could be far into the limiter and not know it, which would destroy your dynamic range, and trash the S/N.

I'd rather see a smart solution such as a meter, or at the very least, a clip indicator, rather than a limiter.

A limiter only might be somewhat useful for beginners who would simply peg a meter anyway, but it really reduces the value for pro or semi-pro players who know their gear.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:59 am
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thompal wrote:

Even if they put a brick wall limiter before the A/D, a meter of some sort is a great idea. In fact, it's almost MORE useful if there is a brickwall limiter, since without any digital overload artifacts at any level, you could be far into the limiter and not know it, which would destroy your dynamic range, and trash the S/N.

I'd rather see a smart solution such as a meter, or at the very least, a clip indicator, rather than a limiter.

A limiter only might be somewhat useful for beginners who would simply peg a meter anyway, but it really reduces the value for pro or semi-pro players who know their gear.


Yes, i agree. A meter like Roland pedalboards and we are done. This meter has to tell you if the level if too high but also if it is too low to get optimal sound and dynamics.

i would be curious to know the solution adopted by Cliff Chase at Fractal Audio on his digital sound processors to virtually get rid of any digital artifact which is the base of a state of the art digital modeller ..
i suppose that one of the solutions could be they take advantage of a huge dinamic range by high depth quantization on those A/D , D/A converters..
perhaps has nothing to do but i'm thinking when you work with an audio editor / sequencer for example Adobe audition:

if you set a quantization depth very high (24 bit or more) the dynamic range of the file is so widened and you can record or processing something with a level even over the 0 Db (max roof for 16 bit quantization) and you don't get clipping at all until you stay below the new roof.. so you can do something similar to analogical tape recordings.. but based on the depth of quantization you choose you can have the security to increase input level considerably without worry to get an irreversible distorsion... ( Then the dynamic range must be readapted to the conversion back to 16 bits otherwise then become distorted.)
if things basically would work out really so in some digital processors , it would be more difficult to go beyond the new limit of some tens of decibel in more. A distortion effect usually has a gain until some tens of decibel..
However, we know that a properly regulation of the input level is always required even in the most refined processors because the dynamic range as high is not infinite ..


Last edited by frondizi on Thu May 23, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:00 pm
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Hi,
as said in the other post, here's the answer from Radialeng about the Tonebone Dragster..

Hi Dimitri,
The problem with your Fender amp (my guess) would be the dynamic range is limited at the input before the analog to digital converter. So reducing the output solves the problem. Although the Dragster may help tame the tone, it is difficult to confirm that it would fix the problem. It is more likely an issue where you have to reduce the level going into the guitar amp to ensure it is not overloaded.

Thank you for thinking of Radial!

Peter


So, is it possible that the dynamic range is already limited in some way before the input signal goes into A/D converters? in the precedent message i was assuming that could be a problem caused by a not adequate dynamic range or quantization depth to handle higher input level from external effects or internal distortions as well.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:11 pm
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frondizi wrote:
Hi,
as said in the other post, here's the answer from Radialeng about the Tonebone Dragster..

Hi Dimitri,
The problem with your Fender amp (my guess) would be the dynamic range is limited at the input before the analog to digital converter. So reducing the output solves the problem. Although the Dragster may help tame the tone, it is difficult to confirm that it would fix the problem. It is more likely an issue where you have to reduce the level going into the guitar amp to ensure it is not overloaded.

Thank you for thinking of Radial!

Peter


So, is it possible that the dynamic range is already limited in some way before the input signal goes into A/D converters? in the precedent message i was assuming that could be a problem caused by a not adequate dynamic range or quantization depth to handle higher input level from external effects or internal distortions as well.

Dimitri

I interpret that as a "limitation" of the dynamic range and not a signal limiter. I could be wrong, but I think if there were a brickwall limiter in place the issue wouldn't be so prevalent. However, if there is in fact some type of pre A\D limiter in the chain, I would imagine a firmware flash that raised the threshold to give more headroom and a clip light function might do the trick.

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Post subject: Re: Feature suggestion for Possible Firmware update
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:21 am
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Haha, I have been dissapointed for the last few days with the hi-gain sounds with my mustang V (v.2), then I raised the volume when no one was home to 5, omg, awesome! xD Forgot how crispy and tight it sounds with high volume, those celestion v30s are made for high volume!

A hi-gain/lo-gain option for the input would be great. That is the input to the software itself, I don't like to have a 1-10 input-option, that is just confusing, I just wanna plug in my guitars and rock, so a LO/HI-Input option would be great. I like that squashing sound when the guitar output is too hot with the hi-gain distiortion, it sounds even scratchier than without it! But on some lo-gain amps a LO-HI input could be nice.


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