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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:57 pm
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jedi2b wrote:

at max gain as explained, I can pluck the string with my bare pinky and it will do it. Try it, every mustang ever made seems to do it.


Hi,
and i have to point out that i discovered from recent further tests (i have to play with the amp of course) that at higher gain levels (or with addition of od/distorsion stompbox..) you can hear that modulation not just with notes on 2 lowest strings (E, A) but also in higher strings notes .. 4th and 3th strings.. the phenomenon becomes increasingly less evident on high strings..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:06 am
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I don't have a V2 yet, but i seriously want one. And by what you are describing I'm not convinced that this is an issue that is cause for great concern, but rather more of a curious observation. But I can foresee this discussion heading down the road of the great fizz debate. I'd appreciate if you can clear up a couple of questions before people start jumping to conclusions.

So just to be clear, are you saying that this unwanted modulation is a significant problem that you think needs to be fixed to improve the overall performance of the amp?

Or,

Is it along the same lines as the fizz, where it will only be detected by discerning listeners under specific parameters and the average user will never even know it exists until someone points it out?

In your opinion, is this issue more or less of a significant issue than the fizz issue? What's the bottom line? All things considered, is the V2 a better amp than the V1 or not?


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:49 am
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Very good question Scorpaeon,

I would say this is a complementary issue to the Fizz on V1's, it WILL affect some users but probably not the majority of whose were most concerned about V1 fizz. V1 fizz was an issue MOSTLY with people playing clean presets, low gain (jazz, ambient, you get the picture)

This other issue, that, I repeat, is present in BOTH my Mustang 3 V2 and my Mustang Floor (so probably is present on any other mustang product out there too) I think will affect people that uses features of this list (possibly the more check marks, the more affected)

-Using low and medium gain amp-models pushed REALLY hard (think amp-gain = 9-10)
-using REALLY hot pickups (active pickups, HB's with high guitar volume settings)
-using external pedals on the instrument input that push the amp harder (think SRV using Tubescreamer to put amp into drive)
-using any "pre" pedal with level to max

So the affected public is going to be in this case in the "blues-rock" space. If you are a Metal2000 user you will not notice this as the amp-model does this thing all the time :)

In the other hand, if you already have a V1 amp and never got bothered by this, chances are you are not going to be bothered on V2 either, unless you want to dig into new high gain pedals in front of low gain amp-models.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:22 am
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jedi2b wrote:

unless you want to dig into new high gain pedals in front of low gain amp-models.


And this type of setting would seem to me completely legitimate and quite common even under conditions of normal use of amplifiers .. for example think to Gilmour and its Big Muff (or earlier Fuzz Face arbiter) before the clean Hiwatt ..
but there are many other examples..

Nothing experimental, after all
It's almost certain that this is a software problem on which these simulations are based as already mentioned ...
Amplitube 3 also exhibits similar behaviour .. or limitation..
Substantially they are not able to smoothy handle high input level of signal..


Dimitri


Last edited by frondizi on Thu May 02, 2013 6:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:15 am
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indeed, I agree. A good example is the "bad weather" preset made by Fender and that is a default on the V2 amps. I guess by the name it tries to mimic the "Texas Flood" kind of tone. Very legitimate and usable as preset, but if you turn your guitar volume up it gets modulated and not pleasant.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:01 am
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jedi2b wrote:
So the affected public is going to be in this case in the "blues-rock" space. If you are a Metal2000 user you will not notice this as the amp-model does this thing all the time :)

In the other hand, if you already have a V1 amp and never got bothered by this, chances are you are not going to be bothered on V2 either, unless you want to dig into new high gain pedals in front of low gain amp-models.

Thanks for the confirmation. Blues rock guitar is my thing, and I've never noticed this issue on my V1, so I have no worries about getting a V2. That being said, it would be cool if Fender could fix this. Any upgrade to the overall performance of the amp is a good thing.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:44 am
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so to sum up: the Mustang series amplifiers are great potentially but unfortunately until the problems discussed above (digital aliasing or other) are not addressed effectively by a firmware update, the quality suffers ..
I wish Fender developers gave us assistance or help to resolve as soon as possible .. as they did with issues in clean tones of precedent version 1.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:51 pm
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Hi Guys,

We will be happy to assist. Thanks for you feedback. We have tried to reproduce the behavior described in your posts, but are not able to hear any issues as described. If you guys provide us with exact reproductions steps and possibly a small sound-clip containing the issue you encountered, we will go ahead and test it. Thanks and we look forward to hearing from you soon.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:01 pm
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Hey Fender,

I'm very glad you joined the discussion.

This is a short and crude clip showing the issue, that from now on I will call the "buzz" just to simplify.

http://snd.sc/12ofjk2

The recording has been done via USB to avoid any mic distortion. My amp is a mustang 3 V2 with latest beta firmware.
The first two tones are an open E string and an open A string, then I alternate E 12th fret, E15 fret, A 12th fret, A15 fret a couple times, particularly during these last notes the buzz is clearly audible (is the tremolo like saturated tone) and even easily visible on the soundwave itself.

Here's how to reproduce very easily:
-dial the basic bassman preset (preset 87 on M3-4-5)
-change amp gain to 10
-in my case I use the bridge pickup of a HSS Fender strat, but any HB should do I think
-put guitar volume at 10 and guitar tone at 10
-play an open E, open A, and the 12th/15th fret of the E and A string


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:40 pm
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Yes Jedi,
and that is just a milder example of that phenomenon.

As already said, there is a second stage when you use one of several low/mid gain amp models , lowering gain to common settings for example 7/8 for a basic crunch tone or even just slighly dirty tone depending on model , and adding an overdrive/dist/fuzz to create sustained tones ..
in this case the input level increases further more or less significantly and occurs also the tremolo like phenomenon (beside to expected tube-like compression) or/and phaser like modulation so the level sways and particularly low notes sustained, are affected.

But I've noticed lately that also depends greatly on the frequency of the note itself .. to make a test, playing natural harmonics can be affected both bass strings and treble strings ..
by touching natural harmonics, by accident I discovered that in fact playing those at the fifth fret of each string and the seventh fret of each string, only some of these notes were affected by undulation .. or/and type phaser effect. The other notes seemed to stay sustained in normal way.
Also, in high strings if you hit an high note (or some harmonics) you can hear a strange high rate flickering sound that usually can occurs when a pitch shifter is unable to detect the correct pitch of note so the resulting pitch become unstable and very quickly flickering..

If there is a sustained note you hear it almost at the end of decay...
if the note or harmonic is played more softly it occurs just after the attack .
But i think it is part of the same problem just in a range of higher frequencies or in other words shifted in frequency..

by the way.. it is possible that this issues do not appear to amplifier just new but after several hours of use.. as in the precedent version 1.

I could be wrong but I'm sure to remember that when I had tried for a while in the store (in a small quiet room) did not seem to show any of these phenomena. I even tested the amp with a preset Bassman with maximum basses .. and other critical settings as Jedi2b had suggested in a past post .. So much so that I thought "finally everything is ok" ..

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:38 am
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The audio sample sounds like oscillation to me. Try the experiment below and see if the 'wong wong wong' sound matches up with the string oscillation.


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Last edited by strings10927 on Fri May 03, 2013 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:38 am
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strings10927 wrote:
The audio sample sounds like a oscillation to me. Try the experiment below and see if the 'wong wong wong' sound matches up with the string oscillation


In the sound sample I hear what I think is string oscillation accompanied by an over lying buzz, more noticeable on the bassier notes. The oscillation, I think, is normal string dynamics. I get the same sort of sound even on un-amplified strings. But I'm not sure what to make of the buzz. Now I'm curious if the same thing can be reproduced on other than Fender Mustang modeling amps.

As heard in this one sound sample, I'm not concerned that this a limitation. Very unlikely it can be heard when playing riffs or licks.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:26 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
The oscillation, I think, is normal string dynamics. I get the same sort of sound even on un-amplified strings. But I'm not sure what to make of the buzz.

O.P. described a "phaser-like modulation.....like a ring modulation":
frondizi wrote:
after the attack of the notes, expecially notes on bass strings, occurs a kind of phaser-like modulation or under certain conditions like a ring modulation

It would seem based on the description that the 'buzz' you are hearing is something separate.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:03 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
The audio sample sounds like a oscillation to me. Try the experiment below and see if the 'wong wong wong' sound matches up with the string oscillation


I agree that the tremolo-like distortion could be a combination of string dynamics with a saturated input. I would like a confirmation from Fender if possible.

In the other hand what gives me fizz-deja-vu is that:
-This happens particularly on 5th and 6th string, and on high frets...
-there's an undulation kind of effects...
-and sometimes you get a scitar effect almost identical to the Fizz of V1's (listen carefully at the recording at the 12 second mark... having had the fizz in my old V1 I can tell you it sounds exactly like that, but under different conditions)

so before we start to freak out I would really like to hear an opinion from Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:39 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
The audio sample sounds like a oscillation to me. Try the experiment below and see if the 'wong wong wong' sound matches up with the string oscillation.



Hi,
sorry but i have to disagree:
even the low MI - 6th string or open E that is the lowest frequency (unless you lower the pitch even further by turning the tuning peg or vibrato arm which I have not) vibrates at frequency of about 80 Hz .. an E at 12th fret (expecially the natural harmonic) vibrates at about 160 Hz .. even considering interactions between 2 notes (powerchords) they could generate a 3th frequency not below 25 hertz from what i read in an interesting italian article on a musicians web site.
i did my last test playing natural harmonics and keeping muted the other 5 strings.. but also letting resonate the other strings the oscillation we are discussing can be no more than 4-10 Hertz (in high strings , high notes when the pitch become unstable and generate a flickering tail.. ) and the so called "wong wong" is very slow compared to vibration of notes.. in a range of 1-2 Hertz ..
when you listen to a Santana sustained tone , even though can be helped by feedback with amp, you hear a "straight note" with no modulations and the oscillation of the string is a frequency too fast to hear its undulation.. did you hear an 80 hz wave sine or even triangle , square wave which is more similar to a distorted tone? are you able to hear its ondulation? or instead seems to hear a straight note that seems not modulated ?
our phenomenon has a beat you can hear clearly..

Dimitri


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