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Post subject: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:22 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Hi,
some days ago i started a discussion by private message with Jedi2b because i realized that he is a tecnologies enthusiast like me and i didn't want to go off-topics in the forum.

To avoid misunderstandings, I begin by stating that the old problem, in clean tones, called "fizz", in the previous version 1 had been completely resolved (I already said in a precedent post some weeks ago that it disappeared after one of the latest V1 firmware update .. 1.9 or 1.10 i don't remember) , and of course doesn't exist anymore.

However, I recently noticed that in the natural saturated tones (originated just from the amp model) , in the mid overdriven tones or higher gain amps with or without additional od / distorsions stompboxes, after the attack of the notes, expecially notes on bass strings, occurs a kind of phaser-like modulation or under certain conditions like a ring modulation ... then if you hold a sustained note to say in the style of Santana, you can clearly hear this effect usually unnecessary and even unwanted.

To allow Jedi to hear what it is, I recorded samples of low notes through the headphones output to the M-audio card .. and I randomly selected a preset with a medium to low gain .. PRESET # 3 "Bad Weather" without modification. In this case there is also the greenbox active.
that modulation also occurred on the lower natural harmonics (for example 12th fret, 6th string) but seemed inaudible playing some natural harmonics higher.

Initially I and Jedi, thought that was the behavior of distortion produced by a Tubescreamer ..
then I made ​​another experiment: I chose one of the Jedi favourite preset "bassman drive" that it is a basic amp preset .. and i have put the gain at 10 ..
well, even in this case just the amplifier is enough to generate that Kind of modulation that comes out with even more presence and power.. i would say that my precedent recorded test is a weak example compared to this setting.
To the light of this tests my hypothesis is that it can be a software issue , absolutely not hardware issue, and it could be even easily fixed by a next firmware update and this is also the Jedi opinion.

So we would like extend the discussion to other members of the forum:
if someone want help us to understand (doing their tests ) giving their feedback if this behaviour is expected also in real things , i mean real tube amps and vintage stompboxes, and the same "side effect" can usually occurs at least under certain condictions..
i don't have experience with real tube amps except sometimes with clean amps so i don't know how really a tube overdriven amp can reacts.
I have experience, as already said in precedent posts, with several Roland /Boss products and its kind of digital modelling and effects, and also with my first amp that was a Laney combo solid state (World series 60) with its embedded overdrive/distortion circuit.. in that case analogical overdrive/distortion circuit and not digital modelling.

but honestly it is the first time i'm experiencing that kind of modulation, undulation on sustained notes.. i was used to get that kind of "straight" sustained note (in Santana style) than we could compare to a note a violinist can get playing an open string.. no modulation (in that case , no finger vibrato)

did you notice it? what do you think about?

many thanks
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:09 pm
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To add to Dimitri's explanation, here's an easy way anybody can reproduce this kind of behaviour:

-dial the basic bassman preset
-put amp-emulation gain to 10
-in your guitar increase volume to 10
-play an open A string

Most other low-med gain basic amp-models will exhibit the same behaviour under extreme saturation (british 60 is another example)

Now, I'm not sure if this kind of modulated distorted sound is wanted or not, and I do not have enough experience with tube amps to say if they behave this way or not. I will appreciate if anybody with more experience with amps that I have can comment if that is expected or not.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:03 pm
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I noticed that the volume goes up and down in waves like a bad release-setting on a compressor, but it dissapeared when I turned down the preset-volume, so my signal probably hit some kind of limiter/overload protection (the neck-pickup, emg 85, has A LOT of bass which is worth mentioning)

You could be experiencing a similar problem, some kind of compressor/limiter that kicks in if you hit the roof which makes the volume go up and down.

I don't think this is a hardware-issue either.


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:20 pm
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I agree this is an amp model issue, particularly the input level to the amp model.

-If while having the overdriven modulation I turn the Volume or Master volume knobs on the amp, nothing changes (modulation still there)
-decreasing the amp gain or the guitar volume makes it fade and disapear
-exactly the same modulation over speaker and phones

so again, I do not knowe if real tube amps behave this way or if this a defect on the amp-model

BTW I have it with a single coil neck pickup so having a ultrahot pickup is not required to get the modulation


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:02 pm
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quick update, I did a test with my mustang floor in identical situation and the modulation is also there. If it is on the floor I can assume is also on the other V1's. So it is nothing new.

In the other hand this kind of behavior can become more evident on the V2s as there are more effects that push harder the amp-model input of the clean fender models (ranger, greenbox, blackbox, orangebox) (The bad weather preset that comes with the amp is a good example) so it would be good if Fender can chime in and say what they think about this behavior. Is it by design of certain amp models?


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:00 pm
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Hi Jedi (by the way i don't know yet your real name.. if you want... :) )
hi Hwasser, and all of you are following this post:

Yes Hwasser! you explained perfectly the physical phenomenon : i have talk about undulation but i could say "waving" of sound or signal level .. what you experienced is the "2nd" stage of the phenomenon..
on my Yamaha SG of '70 i have common humbuckers alnico 5 .. a little more powerful than Les Paul P.A.F. but that modulation can be produced also when i split the coils of humbuckers to get single-coil like tones..

First stage : when you send to amp a level equal to single coils or passive humbuckers.. then happens what i and Jedi was describing: a phasing effect added to the main tone but the sound level remains more less stable..

Second stage : when you increase further the input level with active pickups, or with an overdrive/fuzz box before the amp.. in that case occurs an effect that resemble a very slow rate tremolo , so the volume goes up and down till the input level has decreased..
however the electric theory about vacuum tubes if i remember correctly would tell that when you reach the point of saturation in a tube , Mos-fet and other components (i remember particularly transistors behaviour) .. even with higher electric input levels applied, the output level remains constant, it can't rise further.. then it decreases as soon as the input level go below a certain value..
so i don't know if undulations and wavering level belong to saturation phenomenon.. i can not discover it just with the help of electrotechnical/electronic theory .. not with what i can remember from the days i studied to Industrial Technical institute.

and you're right to think it is not an hardware issue.. it cannot be such kind of issue because what i recorded is the output of cab emulation section coming from earphones output.. (for completeness someone of us could repeat the test , recording XLR outputs signal but i think is the same) so it is not involved physical power amp section, transformer and speaker.

The issue should lies in preamp digital section: we can exclude cab section because even with cab sim. switched off the issue remains as Jedi said in the other post.

Dimitri


Last edited by frondizi on Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:44 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
quick update, I did a test with my mustang floor in identical situation and the modulation is also there. If it is on the floor I can assume is also on the other V1's. So it is nothing new.


Yes Jedi!
the truth is i was aware of this too. When, in a post of weeks ago, I pointed out my dissatisfaction with precedent amp .. the reason was that I thought that only half of the "fizz" problem had been solved with one of latest V1 firmware updates .. the part about clean tones precisely and this fact, however, was already a major step forward .. we have to admit this fact and thank Fender programmers for that solution.

So, i hope will be possible to fix as soon as possible also the other issue in saturated tones with a next firmware update..
so we looking forward to feedback of Fender Staff as already said by Jedi2b.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:48 am
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I have noticed this effect in the past on higher gain models on the Mustang 1 v1. it is some time ago and my memory of the exact amp model and settings is hazy- but it was definitely present like a very slow tremolo as the note decayed. I will be able to provide further details later, once I recreate the effect this evening.

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:37 am
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I noticed it a while back, too but I thought it was something I was doing wrong with the SAG and BIOS settings. Will have to look into it further. Thanks for all of your work on this!

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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:35 am
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hi,
thanks to all of you for your feedbacks!


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:01 pm
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I think I understand why this happens. All Fender amp-models have an input limiter, some more agressive than others. When input signal goes beyond a point it is simply chopped off.

I think the modulation we hear is simply the string dynamics as they go up and down in volume (you can actually see this if you look at a string when you pluck it) Every time the string saturates the input limiter you hear the modulation, when it goes lower it gets out of saturation.
I think Fender needs to improve those input limiters as they seem rudimentary and they affect the amp performance with high level input signals (for example high guitar volume, active pickups or adding high gain pre effects)


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:16 pm
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Some extra info that goes along what Frondizi shared:

If I use the highest possible combination I can get of gain with my strat:
-bridge humbucker
-guitar vol at 10
-bassman basic preset with gain =10
-add some drive stomp (ranger or greenbox)

Then on top of the saturated tone I get a funny tremolo/phaser effect that is somewhat reminiscent of the fizz on the V1's :cry:

Of course this preset is totally unrealistic and unusable but it helps ilustrate the point that something funny seems to be going on on how the amp-models deal with high level inputs


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:02 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Some extra info that goes along what Frondizi shared:

If I use the highest possible combination I can get of gain with my strat:
-bridge humbucker
-guitar vol at 10
-bassman basic preset with gain =10
-add some drive stomp (ranger or greenbox)

Then on top of the saturated tone I get a funny tremolo/phaser effect that is somewhat reminiscent of the fizz on the V1's :cry:


Do you hit the strings really hard when this accour?


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:21 am
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Hi HWasser,
of course to pluck or pick the strings harder contributes to increase the input level as well..
but we have to be able to play as harder as we need, and get a good tone..
the problem of modulation or amp input limiting exists regardless of the technique used or level input..
is the amplifier that must be at the service of the technique and not vice versa ..
but I think you surely will agree with me about this .. is obvious.

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Unwanted modulation on drive tones on Mustang 3 V2
Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:10 am
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Hwasser wrote:
jedi2b wrote:
Some extra info that goes along what Frondizi shared:

If I use the highest possible combination I can get of gain with my strat:
-bridge humbucker
-guitar vol at 10
-bassman basic preset with gain =10
-add some drive stomp (ranger or greenbox)
No, I can pluck it with my pinky and it will do it
Then on top of the saturated tone I get a funny tremolo/phaser effect that is somewhat reminiscent of the fizz on the V1's :cry:


Do you hit the strings really hard when this accour?


at max gain as explained, I can pluck the string with my bare pinky and it will do it. Try it, every mustang ever made seems to do it.


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