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Post subject: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default input?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:18 am
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Hi,

im kind of a real Fender Fanboy right now, due to the fact the mustang floor brings very nice amp modelling.

I use it directly to the PA, which I think is its best dedication.

But because of the limitations, that you can't run compressor and overdrive at the same time, I started using external Stompboxes.

Are there some experiences or thoughts, if it has advantages / disadvantages running effects directly into the input in opposite to plugging it into the fx loop? (Mainly Comp and OD)

Does it have the same effect as if I would put it into the default input of a real Amp, or is it with the floor critical to use all stomps through FX-Loop? Because in my understanding, the FX Loops Purpose is dedicated for Phaser / Flanger / Chorus / Reverb but not mainly for Comp / OD / Dist on a real amp, because the Od and Dist mainly need to overdrive the preamp or something, if you know what I mean.

Can I really "overdrive" the floor preamp?

Thanks in advance,
Stephan

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:21 am
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putting any effect on the fz-loop of the floor is in all respect identical to putting the pedal between your guitar and the floor instrument input except of the fact that when on the fx-loop, you can engage or disengage your external pedal with the floor insert button (and the insert button setting get's saved with the floor preset)

so in theory you can just plug your pedal to the fx-loop and configure some preset's on the floor to use and some others not to use it via the insert button.


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:48 am
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jedi2b wrote:
putting any effect on the fz-loop of the floor is in all respect identical to putting the pedal between your guitar and the floor instrument input except of the fact that when on the fx-loop, you can engage or disengage your external pedal with the floor insert button (and the insert button setting get's saved with the floor preset)

so in theory you can just plug your pedal to the fx-loop and configure some preset's on the floor to use and some others not to use it via the insert button.


You seeme to have an idea of how the mustang floor works on the inside. Could you tell me a bit more in detail, why stompboxes should be plugged on real amps like the graphic shows, and why the mustang floor should behave otherwise?

http://www.glab.com.pl/img/kolejnosc_efektow1d.jpg

thanks,
Stephan

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:38 am
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Sure, but you might not like the answer :)

The picture you sent shows the "standard" placement of pedals according to type, not because it will not work otherwise, but because most people like how it sounds connected that way, because of the treatment of the signal each kind of pedal does to the audio. For example, most people like to add the reverb as a last effect in their chain (some exceptions apply) and use the booster/distortion as the first pedal in their chain (again, some exceptions apply)

For some obscure reason Fender is not sharing detailed info on the fx-loop placement and it took a fair amount of reverse engineering to get it. There might be some mistakes but nothing major I think. Fender you are most welcome to correct me.

In all cases below "power amp" section is just to increase the volume of the signal prior to the speakers, it adds no colouring to the sound whatsoever and is what you control with the master volume (mustang 3-4-5) and level (Floor) physical knobs.

FX-loop on Mustang 3-4-5 V1 amps
The picture you sent describes a standard emulation amp fx-loop, if such thing exists, and is exactly what you are going to find on the Mustang 3-4-5 V1 amps for example, the signal path is something like this in those cases:

guitar -- instrument input on amp -- mustang "pre" effects - mustang amp emulation -- mustang cabinet emulation -- mustang "post" effects - fx-loop - mustang poweramp -- speaker

so in essence, the fx-loop is after-all-and-before-the-speaker, ideal for connecting some pedals like the ones you have in your picture's fx-loop and a looper, or to use the fx-send as a line-out


FX-loop on Mustang 3-4-5 V2 amps

Similar to the V1 but not quite.

guitar -- instrument input on amp -- mustang "pre" effects - mustang amp emulation -- fx-loop -- mustang "post" effects -- mustang cabinet emulation -- XLR-lineout- mustang poweramp -- speaker

so the fx-loop is kind of more or less in the middle of the chain now, so you can still use it for external post-amp effects (as in your picture) with somewhat similar results as the V1, except that you can not use a looper anymore. The cabinet emulation was also moved to the bottom of the chain which represents more a traditional real-amp setup but I thing makes the overall tone less usable as the cabinet emulation EQ scoop affect all effects signal.

FX-loop on Mustang Floor
Completely different approach to the mustang amps and possibly the most useless of all setups:

guitar -- instrument input on amp -- fx-loop -- mustang "pre" effects - mustang amp emulation -- mustang cabinet emulation -- mustang "post" effects -- floor small poweramp (level knob) -- XLR/unbalanced-lineout


So here connecting any effect on the fx-loop is essentially the same as connecting it to the guitar input with the exception you can take it out of the chain pushing the insert button on the floor. You can do in this case what you see on you picture as "fx-loop" connecting it this way:

guitar -- instrument input -- fx-loop (for switchable external pedals, pre-emulation, for overdrive for example) - mustang emulations - unbalanced outputs -- post external pedals (as a reverb for example) -external power amp or PA

hope this helps


Last edited by jedi2b on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:58 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Sure, but you might not like the answer :)
[...]
FX-loop on Mustang 3-4-5 V1 amps
The picture you sent describes a standard emulation amp fx-loop, if such thing exists,
[...]

FX-loop on Mustang 3-4-5 V2 amps

Similar to the V1 but not quite.
[...]
FX-loop on Mustang 3-4-5 V2 amps
Completely different approach to the mustang amps and possibly the most useless of all setups:
[...]
hope this helps


I don't get it- copy/ paste error? :)

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:17 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Sure, but you might not like the answer :)
[.....]
FX-loop on Mustang Floorboard *edit by Stephan*

So here connecting any effect on the fx-loop is essentially the same as connecting it to the guitar input with the exception you can take it out of the chain pushing the insert button on the floor. You can do in this case what you see on you picture as "fx-loop" connecting it this way:

guitar -- instrument input -- fx-loop (for switchable external pedals, pre-emulation, for overdrive for example) - mustang emulations - unbalanced outputs -- post external pedals (as a reverb for example) -external power amp or PA

hope this helps


I think you messed up the bold headers and edited it like I think you meant it to be.

This of course is interresting to me.
First- plugging stompboxes AFTER the Floorboard, you sure that will have not bad effect on the sound / or side effects?

Second, I am afraid that maybe the fx-loop kind of blurs or delays the signal. I do not know what it does exactly, but the fact that it has to be mixed up with the original signal makes me wonder if that can be a process, that does not affect the signal-chain in some- maybe unwanted way, or behaviour.

When I tried it out last time, to switch overdrive between the two positions, I had the feeling in the position right after the guitar, it sounded a bit more natural.

Indeed your thoughts and knowledge are very helpfull to me, thanks!

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:02 am
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Indeed I made a copy paste error. I corrected the original posting. I'm convinced world war 3 will start because of a copy paste error.

Nothing will happen to any of your pieces of equipment regardless how and wher eyou connect your pedals. Worst case it will sound awful. Go out and experiment.


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:25 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Indeed I made a copy paste error. I corrected the original posting. I'm convinced world war 3 will start because of a copy paste error.

Nothing will happen to any of your pieces of equipment regardless how and wher eyou connect your pedals. Worst case it will sound awful. Go out and experiment.


Sorry if the exeggerated emoteicons / smileys of this boardsoftware made you think that was ment sarcastig or something from me, it wasn't ment that way.
Just wanted to know if I understand what you wan't to say.

So, you may think my thoughts concerning this topic may be wrong, misleading. Ok, i'll have to try out.

Where do you have the information with the signal chains from? Are there other topics with similar thread that I did not find concerning this? Or do you have unmounted your floorboard? (:

Also, which configuration do you play your Mustang floorboard? Do you use external effects? Are you happy with the internal fx-options?

thanks, and sorry for misunderstanding,
Stephan

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:33 pm
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Hey, no problem,

The information about the Mustang V1 and Mustang floor chain I got by experimenting myself.

The info about the Mustang v2 appeared in a recent thread about V2 amps having trouble with loopers.

Frankly I do not use much effects and I get most of my sounds by amp emulation tweaking. But I guess it depends on which kind of music you play. The effects I use the most are the overdrive (which with some fine tuning sounds like a tubescreamer) the reverbs (spring and small plate) and the tremolo from time to time.

What I have found is that many times people keep using their pedals when having a Mustang more because they are used to them than anything else. If you are having trouble trying to emulate a particular tone, please send a link with a sample and I can try to provide an equivalent to get you started.

Regarding damage to your equipment, I can not think on any way or form that you can damage equipment via audio connections, worst case it will sound awful and your ears will ring for a minute or two :)


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:35 am
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Interresting, thanks for info.

For me it is other than for most people that use the pedalboard, I think.

Since the very beginning I have been using a Hughes & Kettner Transistor Amp with a Boss GT-6 Multieffects + Ampmodelling Board. (without any stompboxes!)

Since lets say, 1 year, I mostly play Funk / Rock in a Band, and therefor have changed to the mustang floor for having more realistic Amp-Modelling, and for not having to carry an amp to concerts etc.

But sometimes I realised, that the Amp Modells + its gain do sound loooads better than the OD Pedals (and other stompboxes) inside the Mstng. Floor.

Also, I play mostly a mexican strat, due to frequency band seperation -> it is very bright and trebbly, while the other guitarists Strat is more mid-low ranged with its frequencies.

So with my Setup and Configuration, the bright, trebly sounds are sometimes TOO trebly, especially on higher volumes. Because of that, I try to make my sound a bit more distinct but also balanced, with some compressors (like MXR Dyna comp). I really tested out enough so I can tell you, in my humble opinion, some old fashioned stomp boxes can get much more out of the well done M.Floor-ampsims, than the stomp effects (mostly OD and COMP) on the Mustang Floor can do.

So long story short, I try to get the perfect sound out of a very compact gear in a nutshell.

I will send you a sample sound in near future via link here, from my actual attempt to harmonize the signal out of my chain, while trying to retain the smooooth fender mexico strat sound texture.

One thing left, that should be said: I know I could also turn down the tone knob on the strat, but not on the bridge-pu, and also I think it kind of makes the sound brittle, less distinct, so this is not my favorite choice.

best regards, Stephan

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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:20 am
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I agree with you on the effect "pre" amp modelling effects like overdrive and compressor sound not quite right. I prefer to tweak the amp emulation gain as much as possible, and if that does not give me enough bite, I switch to a more crunchy amp emulation

For the brittle sound try the following:
-try bias values from +15 to max value
-play with sag less and match values
-In those cases I normally switch cabinet to SS212 or SS112


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:18 am
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jedi2b,

I'm also interested in using a looper with my Mustang III v.2.

As a way of dealing with the new signal path, couldn't one connect the amp to their PC, turn off the cab simulation, and just move the Post-effects to the Pre-effects section?

Sure, it won't sound ideal, but would it work?

As far as my use, a looper would be for practice. A musical "scratch pad" of sorts.


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:45 am
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hey klingy,

of course moving the effects from post to pre will work, it will just sound different. not the end of the world by any means, jut try it out and if you find the sound acceptable you are good to go.

In the other hand the way I would do it is, that is way less intusive with the presets:
-leave the post effects where they are
-go from the XLR line out to a XLR to unbalanced converter (any cheapo converter will do)
-from the unbalanced converter to your looper input
-from your looper output to the mustang aux in

if this does not sound totally right, I would disbale the cab emulation, because the cab emulation get's applied at the XLR outs and also at the speaker out, so doing the aforementioned setup will apply the cabinet emulation twice at the sound.

It would be great if fender added the possibility to disable the cab emulation on the speaker only for this kind of applications


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:33 am
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jedi2b,

Thanks for the quick response.

I saw on a different posting, where you addressed this situation with another member. Along, with what a representative from Fender posted, there were a couple of "solutions".

I came to my idea by figuring that if one has, say, a Marshall stack...everything recorded on the looper is going to come out "colored" by whatever cab they are using. So, while the v.1 signal path would be the better for getting the most out of the Mustang/looper combination, the v.2 signal path would be more like what one would actually encounter if a player had one amp head, and one cabinet. In the case of the Mustang III, if one disables the cab emulation, the actual "cabinet" would be the Mustang's 1x12 Celestion. Am I correct in thinking this?


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Post subject: Re: External Stompboxes Comp / OD -> FX-Loop or default inpu
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:57 am
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you are correct. The downside is that disabling the cabinet emulation may put off the tone freaks (like me) but worst case you are going to get the natural cabinet dynamics of the celestion 12" (which is not bad at all by the way)


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