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Post subject: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:36 pm
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So, I've got a Fender Mustang I (v1). Pretty much love it. I play a '80 Les Paul Custom.

Recently, I started playing with a blues band. So far, at some pretty decent volume levels, the little Mustang hasn't had any problem keeping up.

But here's the problem. We have 3 guitar players, all playing Les Paul's. One of the others is playing through a Twin Reverb or Deluxe reissue, not sure which - all I know is our tones are really similar. The other is playing through a Peavey, with a reasonable "bluesy" tone, not the same, but still things are getting a bit muddy. Since I'm the new guy, I'm sure not going to ask one of the others to change their tone.

So I've been concentrating on playing more complimentary parts - chord inversions, alternate voicings, etc. But I'd like to refine my tone to make it stand out a bit more - if only so I can hear what I'm doing, and make sure it sounds right.

I spent a fair amount of time with the Mustang, trying different presets, different effects combos, etc., but I've been frustrated with the limitations of the Mustang in this area. Only one stompbox effect, for example, in front of the amp, for example, so I can't do both an overdrive and a compressor in front of the amp.

Part of the problem is that I don't have a real good grasp on what all the parameters mean, in terms of affecting tone, so it's pretty much trial and error, and I don't have endless time to tweaking and experimenting.

Another part of the problem is that the effects themselves are so flexible - this translates to "generic". And again, this means a lot of trial and error.

Still a third frustration is trying to find useful presets. I go out in Fuse, and find 5 presets with the same name, and nothing other than the author to distinguish them, and because it's a community thing, people aren't real good about categorizing their submissions. Maybe I'm missing something, but the preset library is way overdue for a cleanup. And of course, the quality of the presets can vary hugely.

So, what I have done is purchase a Zoom G3X. I've been wanting a looper, and a rhythm machine, and it does both. It has an expression pedal built in, as much of one as I need. And remarkably, Zoom wasn't shy about listing out their effects and amp models, and identifying precisely what they were intended to emulate. I've gotten the Empty preset for the Mustang, so I can experiment with the Zoom amp modeling, and I intend to get the V1 adaptation of the Studio Pre-amp preset.

For starters, though, I've gone through, and my red and green presets are all a different amp, set up pretty clean, with some light reverb behind them. I figure I'm going to clear out one of the Zoom patches, and set it up with no amp, some EQ, a noise gate, and assign the expression pedal to volume. From there, I'll swap in different stompboxes, and try to zone in on what I want. As I mentioned, Zoom lists what the effects are supposed to emulate, so instead of fiddling with a generic overdrive, I can swap in a TubeScreamer, or an OD-1, or a DS-1, etc. and see if I like the effect, then focus on the ones I like.

So now that I've explained where I'm at, and what I've done/doing (and not so subtly gushed about my new toy!) I'd like to hear advice from the veterans of how best to achieve a decent bluesy tone, that will fit in with the rhythm section of a blues band, but still have some uniqueness.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:01 pm
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Interesting conundrum you have there, I recently ran into a similar too-many-guitars-sound-similar kind of problem. I came up with a preset that the other guys never thought about but that complement pretty well what they do:

-the other play acoustic and les paul with fender tones
-I have chosen a british 60's (VOX AC-15) saturated tone (Think Oasis tone), that is quite different from the fenders and has some bite to it but not much so it does not get muddy. On top I added for many songs quite a bit of vintage tremolo that the other guys never experimented with. Sustained barre chords with the tremolo sound quite well and while not overwhelming it cuts through the mix enough because of the jangly vox tone and will add an overall vintage tone.
-Most probably you are going to need a overdrive stomp before the vox emulation to give it some more bite, but that depends on your pickups.

Let me know how it goes because I'm still experimenting and I could use some help too!


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:38 pm
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Good thought! That may be just what the doctor ordered. I'm probably going to do some EQ to cut some of the low end out of my guitar as well.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:46 pm
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Yeah, Brit 60's is one of my goto models as well. The rite kind of brite.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:53 pm
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That's two for the British 60s... and I agree with the brite. Unless you dial in the more bluesy sound, my first impression on most of the Fenders is "surfy".


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:54 pm
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I'm actually pretty impressed that you can keep up with a three guitar band with an M1!!

Anyhow, as someone else stated- the solution to the limited fx slots conundrum is to add stompers of your own. The 'Stangs take them rather well. I'm kind of in the dark as to how to best use a compressor, so my DynaComp mostly stays in it's box... I have had great luck with OD pedals in front of the Mustang. Just be careful with the level- digital clipping is not a very pleasant tone. ( level down at unity, and gain up works best for me.)

I've only used the Vox model once or twice, but I agree that it is rather good! I'm more of a Fender amp-tone guy though. I've been liking the bassman and Twin models, myself. You can dial in some serious punch with those- even more so with an added drive pedal in front.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:24 pm
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Yeah, at least a garage levels, the M1 has kept up admirably. I've never had the master above 5, and I usually play with my volume knob rolled a bit off.

Tried the British 60s tonight, with gain about mid, all the EQ about mid, and some spring reverb behind it, and playing with various stuff on the G3X in front of it. I erased a preset, then started adding pedals to it. Put an M-Comp in the first slot, and Zooms noise gate at the end, then started trying the various flavors of overdrive and distortion for starters. The TubeScreamer emulation turned out to be my favorite... with the tone at mid, it has almost a wah sound to it. I suspect I'll only be using that on the occasional lead, but it's there if I need some punch. Added an chorus ensemble that adds some fullness to the sound, but doesn't seem as overt as the normal chorus effects, stuck a Tremolo in there as jedi suggested, for those high, long chords, and it sounded pretty good. Added an EQ, and cut out some of the lower frequencies. I'm going to try that one at practice, and see how it works. I was definitely liking the Brit 60 sound.

One of the things the Zoom has that I love is an acoustic simulator, and that played well through the Brit 60 as well. So two usable presets for starters, and I'll keep adding from there.

Another question... given the types of things I have in my effects chain, what order would conventional wisdom say is best? I've got it comp/Tscreamer/Chorus/Trem/EQ/Noise Gate, with the 2-4 slots being off most of the time.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:40 am
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I play in a blues band and another band. I've been playing for 30 years. and the one thing I know is : you can't just turn your amp on and play. each room is different. the sound of the band changes from practice to practice. you have to be able to complaiment the other sounds in the room.
this means being able to change your amp in real time.
the mustang's sound even changes as you turn it up.( I have a Mustang 3.)
When I play gigs ,I have to change the settings accordingly. I also carry a boost pedal ( why would you buy a Mustang and a Mustang Floor?? ...Because you don't know how to work the regular Mustang. it's incredibly stupid.) anyway...for loud songs and loud leads and slide. On the Mustang 3 I have I created ( manually) a setting for each Fender model and 2 Marshall models. then I just cycle thru them until I find one that is good for the room or the gig. AND I STILL have to tweak the sound. I'm not complaining. You HAVE to do this with a high priced tube amp too so it's a normal thing. this is what pros DO.
watch the Allman Brothers . you will see them going back to adjust their amps and they change the volume and their tone on their guitar CONSTANTLY!!!!!!!!
I find that almost all the the guys on this forum DON"T play in working bands. and they CAN"T adjust their amps on the fly. ( these amps are VERY easy to change...just learn it...not a problem.)
If I were you I would set every amp model to what you feel is a blues settting. while the other guys are playing around before you start, cycle thru the setttings and find one that sounds good TODAY. OR if you can't do that because some amateur has convinced you ,you can't do that, learn to change you Model Amp MANUALLY!!!
Something you should know: If you are the ONLY guitar player in the band ,people will be able to hear when you use a lot of effects. In a big band people will only be able to hear your basic sound and changes in volume. If you are in a big band AND you play way too loud THEN people will be able to hear all your effect. A dozen effects don't make you sound good . your finger on the strings make you sound good.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:37 am
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DarthGrumpy wrote:
Another question... given the types of things I have in my effects chain, what order would conventional wisdom say is best? I've got it comp/Tscreamer/Chorus/Trem/EQ/Noise Gate, with the 2-4 slots being off most of the time.


have you tried the noise gate as part of the amp emulation on the mustang? I like the fender noise gates a lot. chorus and tremolo I would put on the mustang itself on the post amp loop as I like how it sound there more.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:31 am
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The first thing you should try if you're not punching through is to boost your mids. Sheer volume is not the answer, EQ tweaking is. It's true that you cannot set up your amp while alone and expect those settings to work in a live situation. The noise of everything else going on while the band is playing will affect what frequencies can be heard out of your amp. Things that sound awful while you are playing alone may be perfect for playing with the band. You really do need to adjust things on the fly.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:38 am
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cormorant wrote:
The first thing you should try if you're not punching through is to boost your mids. Sheer volume is not the answer, EQ tweaking is. It's true that you cannot set up your amp while alone and expect those settings to work in a live situation. The noise of everything else going on while the band is playing will affect what frequencies can be heard out of your amp. Things that sound awful while you are playing alone may be perfect for playing with the band. You really do need to adjust things on the fly.


Ok, that's two that obviously ran into a TL;DR on my original post.

The problem isn't volume, or adjusting my amp to the venue, or anything of that nature. The problem is that we've essentially got three guitar players with the same guitar and amp tones, and my relatively inexperienced ear can't pick myself out of the mix, so that I can hear what I'm playing (so that I can correct mistakes, etcetera). I'm looking for advice from more experienced ears, who know and use Mustangs, and have knowledge of what it can and can't do, on developing a tone that's unique enough I can pick it out, but still bluesy enough to fit the genre.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:52 am
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DarthGrumpy wrote:
Ok, that's two that obviously ran into a TL;DR on my original post.


:lol: happens a lot here.

It's hard to have a bluesy tone that stands out. The only 2 blues players I can think of that have drastically different blues tones are BB King and Albert Collins. I think with a Les Paul, you could go for a BB King type tone. BB said Lucille is Les Paul's little sister (although BIG sister makes more sense to me).

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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:17 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
DarthGrumpy wrote:
Ok, that's two that obviously ran into a TL;DR on my original post.


:lol: happens a lot here.

It's hard to have a bluesy tone that stands out. The only 2 blues players I can think of that have drastically different blues tones are BB King and Albert Collins. I think with a Les Paul, you could go for a BB King type tone. BB said Lucille is Les Paul's little sister (although BIG sister makes more sense to me).


Yeah, it happens a lot everywhere. Hey, I get it... people only have so much spare time to read forums. There are more important things to do, like playing with Mustang presets! :lol: I'm just grateful that people are willing to answer questions at all!

Funny you mention BB... I'm a big fan of Texas style blues, but I don't have near the speed (yet) to channel Stevie Ray or the like. BB's a much more reachable target for me, speed-wise, and yeah, love his tone.

Last night, on Jedi's suggestion, I dialed in a nice Vox tone on the Mustang, then started playing with effects on the GX3. I started with the Tube Screamer emulation, and comparing it to the other ODs available, it's easy to see why guys like Stevie Ray used it. It simply is like no other OD that I've ever heard. With the tone turned down, there's an almost wah-like sound to it with Salma (my LP). Even after just the couple hours I spent playing last night, I think I've got something, although, I do want to use the Empty preset, and try out some of the amp sims in the GX3, noteably the Bluesbreaker.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:02 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
DarthGrumpy wrote:
Another question... given the types of things I have in my effects chain, what order would conventional wisdom say is best? I've got it comp/Tscreamer/Chorus/Trem/EQ/Noise Gate, with the 2-4 slots being off most of the time.


have you tried the noise gate as part of the amp emulation on the mustang? I like the fender noise gates a lot. chorus and tremolo I would put on the mustang itself on the post amp loop as I like how it sound there more.


Hmmm... I thought I replied to this, but it isn't showing up.

The problem is that I've got a Mustang I, so I'm extremely limited on what I can do on the fly, as far as changing effects, (or amp models, as the poster with the Mustang III talked about). Heck, I can't even count on being able to easily get to the amp to change presets, once we're set up. I'm limited to a simple footswitch, with two preset choices available. In the garage we currently practice in, trips to the amp aren't practical during a song. Up till now, once we've set up, I've been sticking to my guitar's volume knob for adjustments.

Understand too, that this is basically a group of old farts who like to play music. Chances are, we'll only be playing the occasional gig at the local open-mic night, or whatever. As I progress personally as a guitarist, no doubt I'll be able to justify upgrading to something a bit more gig-worthy, but at this point, the Mustang is just fine. I'm just having to work around a few limitations. I'm focused on the blues band, true, and I'm focusing on coming up with a new tone by the time we practice on Saturday, but I play with my son as well,
and he's into punk, classic rock, and death metal. The Mustang I handles it all. :lol:

As an aside, it so happens that my son just got the Christmas present he's been waiting for... a VOX VT20+. He'd originally wanted the Frontman 25, but they've been on backorder. Since he's been so patient, I told him I'd up the price range, and he settled on the VOX. He thought hard about the Mustang, but the interface limitations of the I and II were a factor, and he wouldn't have the patience to sit in front of FUSE.

In honor of his patience, the wife and I let him play without headphones, and I have to say, I was mildly impressed with the little VOX.


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Post subject: Re: Need advice from my elders...
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:28 am
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DarthGrumpy wrote:
jedi2b wrote:
DarthGrumpy wrote:
Another question... given the types of things I have in my effects chain, what order would conventional wisdom say is best? I've got it comp/Tscreamer/Chorus/Trem/EQ/Noise Gate, with the 2-4 slots being off most of the time.


have you tried the noise gate as part of the amp emulation on the mustang? I like the fender noise gates a lot. chorus and tremolo I would put on the mustang itself on the post amp loop as I like how it sound there more.


Hmmm... I thought I replied to this, but it isn't showing up.

The problem is that I've got a Mustang I, so I'm extremely limited on what I can do on the fly, as far as changing effects, (or amp models, as the poster with the Mustang III talked about). Heck, I can't even count on being able to easily get to the amp to change presets, once we're set up. I'm limited to a simple footswitch, with two preset choices available. In the garage we currently practice in, trips to the amp aren't practical during a song. Up till now, once we've set up, I've been sticking to my guitar's volume knob for adjustments.

Understand too, that this is basically a group of old farts who like to play music. Chances are, we'll only be playing the occasional gig at the local open-mic night, or whatever. As I progress personally as a guitarist, no doubt I'll be able to justify upgrading to something a bit more gig-worthy, but at this point, the Mustang is just fine. I'm just having to work around a few limitations. I'm focused on the blues band, true, and I'm focusing on coming up with a new tone by the time we practice on Saturday, but I play with my son as well,
and he's into punk, classic rock, and death metal. The Mustang I handles it all. :lol:

As an aside, it so happens that my son just got the Christmas present he's been waiting for... a VOX VT20+. He'd originally wanted the Frontman 25, but they've been on backorder. Since he's been so patient, I told him I'd up the price range, and he settled on the VOX. He thought hard about the Mustang, but the interface limitations of the I and II were a factor, and he wouldn't have the patience to sit in front of FUSE.

In honor of his patience, the wife and I let him play without headphones, and I have to say, I was mildly impressed with the little VOX.


I think your son will enjoy that VOX... and if he ever has a twinge of regret about not getting the Mustang, he could always grab a Mustang Floor and jack it up to the VOX's effects return and have his cake and eat it too! At the new pricepoint, the Mustang Floor is just about the best value in floorboard history!

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