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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:43 am
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There are advantages to the V2 setup but also disadvantages. Too bad the position of the FX loop in the chain can't be controlled. V3? :)


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:10 pm
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+1 to the V3 improvement :)

the new fx loop seems to accommodate just a very specific setup:

-somebody that wants to use external effects AND
-put those effects post amp emulation AND
-before any mustang post effects AND
-wants to record the whole this using USB

In the process they left out at least these two valid use cases of V1 fx-loop
-given the mustangs do not include a looper (as some other vendors do), at least you can connect one on the fx loop of V1 (not on V2 unless you eliminate any post-amp effects AND disable cabinet modelling, not a realistic option IMO)
-on V1 you can use the fx-send as line out that includes all sound emulations (including cabinet emulation) making the M3-4-5 ideal as powered monitors on stage. On v2, given the cabinet emulation is not on the fx-send nor on the xlr-outs, you need some sort of external cab simulator to get the same result.


providing a flexible insertion point for fx-send and fx-return will solve this issues of V2 and provide other benefits, for example:
-get back the two mentioned v1 use cases
-putting the amp emulation in parallel with fx loop permits to use external amp for dual voicing, many professionals do this as part of their standard rig
-adding effects not only on the post amp emulation, but also on any point in the chain


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:07 pm
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Something I plan to do with a M3v1 is to amplify two guitars. One connected to the M3 front, the other to an external MFX. The M3 FX Send and the external MFX go into a mixer, and the mixer goes into the M3 FX Return.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:06 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
<snip>
-on V1 you can use the fx-send as line out that includes all sound emulations (including cabinet emulation) making the M3-4-5 ideal as powered monitors on stage. On v2, given the cabinet emulation is not on the fx-send nor on the xlr-outs, you need some sort of external cab simulator to get the same result.
<snip>

To clarify, there IS cabinet emulation on the line out XLRs of Mustang v.2 amplifiers (III/IV/V). The emulation on the XLRs is designed for a spectrally flat-ish amplification target - which makes them ideal for powered monitors or in-ears on stage (and you don't need to lose your effects loop to get this functionality).


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:21 pm
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Thanks for the clarification.

I was referring to a previous post on this same thread by a Fender representative who said:

LineOut -> Looper -> AuxIn: headphone/recording cabsim filters on LineOut (looper doesn’t sound like original unless amp model’s cabsim is turned off, parallel audio path might be undesirable).

From this, my understanding was that cabsims are filtered on xlr line-outs.
Could you please give some more details about this filters you are talking about? Is it like the EQ present on the line-outs of the Mustang Floor? and if yes, which kind (you have 9 or 12 different settings on mustang floor if I remember correctly)


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:12 pm
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The cab emulation on the XLRs of the Mustang v.2 III/IV/V is the same as the Mustang Floor's when set to "PA System". Note that this setting doesn't select a single emulation, it selects a set of emulations, one for each of the 12 cab settings (which btw, have been significantly improved on the v.2 vs v.1, i.e. more detail). If you connect the XLRs to a PA, or monitor, etc, it will sound "correct" for each of the cab settings. If you connect it to another guitar amp or the AUX IN of the same Mustang III, for example, it will sound much less "correct" because these cabinet emulations were not designed to be outputted into a guitar amp. On the Mustang Floor this is easily corrected by switching the output voicing to one of the "Combo Amp" targets. This is not an option on the Mustang III/IV/V, hence the TSL's statement mentioned earlier. Hope this helps! Thanks for your interest.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:59 am
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Maybe I'm missing the obvious. This thread has highlighted a change to the position of the fx loop on the V2 amps, with various suggestions of what has changed. But there has been no definitive statement (as distinct from educated hypotheses) of exactly where in the signal path the loop now is.

One suggestion is that the fx loop is now pre-DSP (same as Fender Floor). That would seem to match the OP's experience? That's definitely a retrograde step.

Another suggestion, hinted at by Fender's comment "the effects loop was moved into the digital audio path" is that the fx-loop is in the middle of the DSP, something like this:

guitar input -> DSP "pre" effects -> DSP amp modelling -> FX LOOP -> DSP "post effects" -> ... rest of analogue stuff, power amp, etc

That would actually be quite useful, but I don't think that's very likely: it requires an additional set of D/A and A/D converters, additional analogue circuitry, two separate sets of DSP, and quite a big redesign of the signal path. That's a lot of R&D cost that isn't reflected in any of the V2 feature announcements or the pricing of the V2 amps.

Hence my scepticism (or skepticism for USA readers :)) and seeking a definitive statement. Apologies if there has been such a statement and I've missed it in the noise, a pointer would be much appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:12 am
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scott-uk wrote:
<...>
guitar input -> DSP "pre" effects -> DSP amp modelling -> FX LOOP -> DSP "post effects" -> ... rest of analogue stuff, power amp, etc
<...>

The signal path you've mapped out here is accurate.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 am
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Ben, thanks for the clarification. So, there are actually more changes to the V2 amps than previous Fender announcements, and the specifications on the product pages on the Fender website, suggest. I wonder what else is new/improved?

To make the FX loop positioning perfect, for me at least, would just require the following further change/addition (in bold):

guitar input -> DSP "pre" effects -> DSP amp modelling -> DSP "post effects 1" -> FX LOOP -> DSP "post effects 2" -> ... rest of analogue stuff, power amp, etc

Note this just makes the first DSP section (before the fx loop) identical to the whole of the DSP processing in a V1 amp... Therefore (assuming the first DSP section in a V2 amp has the same processing power as the DSP in a V1 amp) might this be possible in a future firmware update (plus it would also need a corresponding FUSE change)?


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:13 am
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I agree with Scott, that would be a step in the right direction.

I would add to that, it would make sense to add the fx-loop, at least as a configurable option, after the cabinet emulation if possible, and not before the cabinet emulation, as it seems to be the case now if I got it right.

With the change suggested by Scott plus mine, the V1 owners upgrading to V2 would be able to have the same behaviour they had with V1 if they choose to (for example for looper applications)


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:38 am
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Ben, your reply is anxioulsy awaited since I'm going for a Fender Mustang V1
tomorrow.

If the suggestion from both Scott and Jedi2b are feasible I obviously will have the
V2 returned and wait for the forthcoming firmware update.

If it is really not possible than I have only one option and to return to the V1 ensuring
my looper works as before.

Thanks for your appreciated reply.

_________________
Left Handed USA Stratocaster.

Mustang 3 Amp Version 2

Left Handed Custom77 - Les Paul.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:12 pm
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Sorry polypenko, as stated before... hardware constraints limited where we could place the loop in the audio path, and these constraints make it unlikely that I'll change this position via a firmware update.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:47 am
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I've been thinking about this some more. Having the fx loop within the DSP chain in the V2 amps (rather than completely after it, as per V1 amps) is potentially useful... but only if the additional items I and jedi2b propose are also present.

Without those, the position of the fx loop in the V2 amps seems less useful overall than with the V1 amps. There are more downsides (such as the OP's looper issue) than upsides.

Given that the Mustangs have lots of built-in effects but no looper, I think it more likely someone would want to use the fx loop for a looper (which now can't be done with the V2 amps' fx loop position) than for additional effects. And even if one does want additional external effects, there are surely as many situations where you'd want those after the Mustang's effects rather than before.

In short, I'm struggling to find a business, technical, or musical reason for why the V2 amp's fx loop position is better than the V1 amps. There must be good reasons, otherwise Fender wouldn't have done it. For my own education in the use of fx loops, I'd be grateful if anyone who knows, can explain please?


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:29 pm
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Ben Rathke - Fender wrote:
The cab emulation on the XLRs of the Mustang v.2 III/IV/V is the same as the Mustang Floor's when set to "PA System". Note that this setting doesn't select a single emulation, it selects a set of emulations, one for each of the 12 cab settings (which btw, have been significantly improved on the v.2 vs v.1, i.e. more detail). If you connect the XLRs to a PA, or monitor, etc, it will sound "correct" for each of the cab settings. If you connect it to another guitar amp or the AUX IN of the same Mustang III, for example, it will sound much less "correct" because these cabinet emulations were not designed to be outputted into a guitar amp. On the Mustang Floor this is easily corrected by switching the output voicing to one of the "Combo Amp" targets. This is not an option on the Mustang III/IV/V, hence the TSL's statement mentioned earlier. Hope this helps! Thanks for your interest.


Hi,
it's very interesting. i didn't know yet how work the new XLR outputs with different cabs emulation settings.. so, i'm looking forward to get my Mustang 3 V.2 here in Italy, to hear the improvements..
By the way, someone some days ago said that when you connect balanced cables to XLR outs ,this disables automatically the power amp and the speaker of Mustang .. like when you use the headphones ..
Is that correct? Or you can however also hear the sound come out from the speaker even though with a different equalization?
how does it works exactly?

thanks
Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Fender Mustang 3 V2 / BIG problem with looper in FX Loop
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:52 pm
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a line out is not supossed to mute the speakers, otherwise is useless as line-out! (it would be more like a phones out in that case). I hope you are wrong :)


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