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Post subject: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:28 am
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Hi,

Just starting to look into this bit with some Deluxe 65 crunch sounds on my tele (same question prob goes for all the amp models though).

I read a lot that the amp models are very good re their touch sensitivity, and I can replicate it using the guitar volume.

I always assumed that as the sound cleans up you don't lose too much volume, as the crunch bit was clipping anyway.

In using the guitar volume to control the crunch\clean *I* do tend to lose some appreciable volume - I know that sounds obvious - and am wondering if that is right.

Out of interest, and never had a proper tube amp - does the Mustang emulate the clean\crunch volume dynamics pretty well ?

I suppose it is a matter of "how crunchy" to begin with (lots of clipping), and how clean at the end ?

or is there really a sweet spot where it should clean naturally at the same volume the crunch was at and its just I haven't found it yet?

I realise I need to get into the SAG settings as well!


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:30 am
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AFAICT the volume dynamics of the mustangs are the best in the market.

as a quick piece of advice, create your preset with the guitar volume at 10 and make as distorted as you ever want to play. save the preset and roll back your guitar volume to 6-8 and you should be fine and be able to control the emulation dynamics just from your guitar volume knob


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:28 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
AFAICT the volume dynamics of the mustangs are the best in the market.

as a quick piece of advice, create your preset with the guitar volume at 10 and make as distorted as you ever want to play. save the preset and roll back your guitar volume to 6-8 and you should be fine and be able to control the emulation dynamics just from your guitar volume knob


Thanks - although I don't have a problem with the mechanics and how to do it :)

More if whether, and how much, I should expect a VOLUME drop when I turn the guitar down to clean it up ?


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:14 pm
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unfortunatelly there's no easy answer to your question, and it will depend on the amp emulation you choose.

Metal2000 will tsy overdriven with humbukers and single coils down to volume 3 in my guitar

Twin65 will never be really overdriven, but will have some growl starting at volume 7

and all the other models are somewhat in between :)

and of course this will also vary depending on the gain level of the amp emulation and the level and gain of any effects before the amp emulation... in short, you want to try it out with the kind of guitar/pickup/tone you like :)

in my experience, after some tweaking I can get from clean to overdriven using any mustang amp emulation just rolling up and down the volume, but it takes some tweaking.


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:17 am
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Quote:
I should expect a VOLUME drop when I turn the guitar down to clean it up

Volume (as in perceived loudness to the human ear) is a function of both the waveform shape (ie the 'power' in the sound) as well as its peak amplitude.

"Cleaning up" a distorted sound may not reduce the peak amplitude (as you observe, you're just removing the clipping), but will (by definition) change the wave shape, removing/reducing some of the higher harmonics.

This means there is less 'power' (using the word loosely) in the waveform/sound, and thus less perceived volume - even if the peak amplitude stays the same.

So yes, you should expect it to sound a bit quieter. How much the volume is perceived to decrease is probably very subjective.

I wrote another post on this sometime ago, going into the theory in a bit more detail:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73653&p=870252#p870252


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:45 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
I should expect a VOLUME drop when I turn the guitar down to clean it up

Volume (as in perceived loudness to the human ear) is a function of both the waveform shape (ie the 'power' in the sound) as well as its peak amplitude.

"Cleaning up" a distorted sound may not reduce the peak amplitude (as you observe, you're just removing the clipping), but will (by definition) change the wave shape, removing/reducing some of the higher harmonics.

This means there is less 'power' (using the word loosely) in the waveform/sound, and thus less perceived volume - even if the peak amplitude stays the same.

So yes, you should expect it to sound a bit quieter. How much the volume is perceived to decrease is probably very subjective.

I wrote another post on this sometime ago, going into the theory in a bit more detail:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73653&p=870252#p870252


Aha! That nails it then - makes perfect sense about the "power" of the waveform related to its "shape" and therefore its perceived, as well as actual, volume.

I managed to squeeze in a couple of minutes "empty house" this morning, and the louder the whole shebang is, the less the actual\perceived volume falls off when cleaned up, so I can see that at gig levels it really is a "cleaning" result rather than "quieting". At my living room levels, the volume drop is more noticeable.

Its not a problem, it is the expected (rationally explainable) behaviour and just the way it is :)


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:28 am
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Just an update - I have found the 57 Deluxe and Champ the best for this aspect since they have such a good clean sound anyway it feels good to use them - I haven't played with the the amp models so much as I am not sure their clean sounds are as joy-inducing!

With a combination of my attack/fingers/pick and the volume control it is a revelation - and the louder you play, the less any volume drop going from crunch to clean is noticeable.

I have another question which I will create a new thread for re the 57 Deluxe amp...


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:30 pm
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I've found with the MIII, that the touch sensitivity can be very close to a valve amp. The riding the volume trick to clean up can also lower your volume on a tube amp.

For example,

A couple of days ago, I was messing around with one of the Bassman presets. ( don't remember the name, but it was in the #3-8 range, pushed fairly hard, and had only the small room reverb for fx.) Master volume was at 2. I plugged in my MXR Custom Modified OD, and dialled in a light crunch. Level at unity, drive at 11:30, 100mhz rolled all the way to the left, and the bump switch engaged. MIA Strat using the middle and bridge pickups, volume on 10.

I was looking for a sort of Ed King/Skynyrd- Second Helping era tone, and came damn close.

The tone I was getting floored me! It was JUST over the edge into overdrive, with all the punch in the world. It was so dynamic, all it took was lightening up on my pick attack to take it from a punchy crunch, to a glassy as hell clean- still with major punch! This was honestly the best tone I'd ever gotten. It responded to my playing every bit as well as my tube amp does, and FAR better than my Vox Valvetronix ever did.

I'm a huge fan of that pushed sounding clean, so I was ecstatic when I found it totally by accident.

As an aside, I've found that this amp responds to pedals very well. The trick to using an OD pedal with a digital preamp, is to "forget" everything you've heard about how to use them. There are no tubes TO push, and digital clipping sounds like crap anyway. Keep the level low, or at unity, and dial in the dirt with the gain knob. ( you want to use the pedal's distortion, not the preamp's)

My advice to my fellow digital modelling amp enthusiasts: Don't get so wrapped up in the onboard effects that you forget that you can use stompers with them as well.

Edit: The preset is #3 Bassman Drive. I also checked my pedal, and the 100mhz knob was at 12 o'clock, not all the way down.


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:01 am
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I found that placing a compressor model after the amp instead of before (in FUSE) and adding just a little compression worked well for some models. Made it feel more like my real tube amps.


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:49 am
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For some reason the widest dynamics on the "edge of distortion" without fuzzing out I've gotten is with the Princeton model, yes, of course, with compression in the feedback loop. Try this one (I guess there's no other way to upload a patch?). If your guitar has very low output, tweak the compressor threshold rotary down so it kicks in sooner.

Image


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:54 am
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I rebuild your presets and both sound nice with a strat. Thanks. With the Princton I got rid of the flanger and gave even less bass. The Bassman Drive works fine with my cheap Harley Benton "Vintage Overdrive" too. Have you tried setting the Sag to less in this preset? Or playing arround with the cabs? The 2x12C for example gives a completly different sound but with the same behavior concerning the Volume Poti of the guitar.

One of my favorite selfmade presets is this one, the Sharp Champ Deluxe:

Image


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:18 am
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Another way to add more touch sensitivity to most amps is to add a touch sensitive device (like a tube booster or overdrive pedal) in front of the amp and adjust it so it cleans up when you turn down your guitar's volume but adds a just a bit of boost, dirt and compression as you play louder. There are many devices that can do this both solid state and tube, and you don't have to spend a lot of money on them and can even make one yourself.

I use a Bravo Audio tube boost box but I replaced the 12AU7 in it with a 12AX7 because I liked the way that sounded better. It improves virtually all my amps, fattening up the sound and making it juicier when adjusted properly.


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Post subject: Re: Touch Sensitivity
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:24 pm
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Yeah, thanks, Frente. What's curious is the Champ overloads a lot like a more modern amp, almost like a Supersonic, which is getting Solid State-like. For me the Princeton has the least Solid State kind of overload.

Chiquiabello, yes, if you can use external gear, there are lots o' options. Within the Mustang itself adding gain or compression in the post slots does great stuff.


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