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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:50 am
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FFXIhealer wrote:
You don't understand the relationship between FUSE and the Mustang amp. The Mustang amp's DSP chip is where all the amp models and effects and settings are stored. FUSE is nothing more than a pretty interface for you to be able to tweak all of those settings. You can't use the new amp models in the V.1 amps because the amp models LITERALLY are not on the Mustang's DSP chip. They'd have to be put there from manufacture for them to work.

Firmwares update the DSP's manipulation and I/O code, not the amp models buried inside. This is why an update won't add new amps or effects, but CAN add EXP-1 functionality (as that has to do with the I/O of the DSP - see above).

Why then, if I may be so bold to ask without being made to feel like a retard, were the Mustang I and II able to use the additional amp models that only became available after the Mustang III - V were released? Were those extra models already installed on the MI & II DSP chips as a forethought? The MIII - V weren't released till like a year later. Why wouldn't they just make those extra models available if they were in fact already available. Just saying, it doesn't jive.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:22 pm
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I think we're dealing with a marketing issue rather than a technical limitation. If you took away the lure of new models and EFX from V.2 by making them available to V.1ers, what are you selling? Fender's problem is that outside of Fizzgate they hit a real home run with the V.1 and after dumping in a new fizzless power supply they had little to improve it other than new models and EFX. And black tolex! :lol:


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:31 pm
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
I think we're dealing with a marketing issue rather than a technical limitation. If you took away the lure of new models and EFX from V.2 by making them available to V.1ers, what are you selling? Fender's problem is that outside of Fizzgate they hit a real home run with the V.1 and after dumping in a new fizzless power supply they had little to improve it other than new models and EFX. And black tolex! :lol:

I agree. But I don't see the harm in making the new amp models available to all, just like they did when the III - V was released. Mustangs will still continue to be "the best selling amps in the world" regardless.

Not that I must have the new amp models or anything, for anyone who's policing crybabies and complainers, just trying to have a discussion here.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:15 pm
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There's plenty to play with in V1. I ain't got bored yet. I'd take some extra amp models, but can definitely live without them. If I could only run compression and overdrive at the same time......


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:44 pm
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Jeff, your comment brings me to my wild speculation/complot-theory for today:

-you can't have any two stomps on the Mustangs, that is known for sure
-in the other hand you have the mustang floor, which is identical to the other mustangs, except that it has some other advanced features that hint to an improved hardware platform:
-have the wah (which is a stomp) AND have any other stomp at the same time
-it has per output equalizer
-it happens to be also that the floor is a bit more recent than the other mustangs...
-misteriously Fender never announced a V2 floor...

now if (and that is a big IF) the floor happens to be compatible with v2 firmware, this is the plan:

-get yourself a floor at discount price (they are 175$ sometimes)
-upgrade to V2 firmware when available
-place the mustang floor in the effects loop of you other Mustang 3-4-5 v1 amp that you might already have
-configure only effects on the mustang v1, using the empty preset (no amp emulation)
-configure any other effects (even repeated ones) on the floor, using the v2 new amp models and all

that would be wonderful, and you get also the expresion pedal that comes with the floor. and all for 175 extra bucks, and no v2 Tolex with it :)

now, the only piece of information missing is if the floor is going to be upgradeable...
Fender, did you notice I'm making YOU a business case here? c'mon!


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:28 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
Why then, if I may be so bold to ask without being made to feel like a retard, were the Mustang I and II able to use the additional amp models that only became available after the Mustang III - V were released? Were those extra models already installed on the MI & II DSP chips as a forethought? The MIII - V weren't released till like a year later. Why wouldn't they just make those extra models available if they were in fact already available. Just saying, it doesn't jive.


If you look back, those amps were already available on the Mustang I and II. They're just not hot-selectable BY DEFAULT on the amp's faceplate presets, hence why they're not labeled as such. You had to go into FUSE to change those presets, like I did.

When they redid the line for the Mustang 3, 4, and 5, they changed the faceplate and added a lot more controls so that you didn't need FUSE so much to make detailed changes. It was probably one of the biggest complaints users of the M1/M2 had. Not everyone had a netbook to tote to gigs or whatever with them...just to use their amps. With the LCD and the selector wheel, you have a lot more control.

And for the record, this "discussion" you're trying to hold...you're prompting it with what sounds like complaints as opposed to directed and intelligent questions. You're saying "I don't see why Fender can't just do X unless they're just money nazis..." instead of asking "WHY can't Fender do X? Are the amps even capable of X?" If the answer is that it CAN and Fender just isn't doing it, THEN start insinuating that Fender's playing a corporate game, but don't do that BEFORE you get an aswer to the first question - because then you just look like a child.

Because if the amps WERE part of the firmware updates, then why can't you access the bass amps that are in the Fender Bronco? Hmmm? Why can't you get the extra amps that are in the Super-Champ X2? Because they're not part of the firmware. They're part of the ROM chips for the DSP. They're hard-coded. They'd HAVE to be for the amp to start up as fast as it does now.

And that brings up an interesting thought. Does anyone that visits this forum and reads this thread actually HAVE a Super-Champ X2? We could use an amp list and compare...see if Fender's just adding those amps to the Mustang line or if they're going to be different amp models altogether. Hmm.

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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:37 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
Jeff, your comment brings me to my wild speculation/complot-theory for today:

-you can't have any two stomps on the Mustangs, that is known for sure
-in the other hand you have the mustang floor, which is identical to the other mustangs, except that it has some other advanced features that hint to an improved hardware platform:
-have the wah (which is a stomp) AND have any other stomp at the same time
-it has per output equalizer
-it happens to be also that the floor is a bit more recent than the other mustangs...
-misteriously Fender never announced a V2 floor...

now if (and that is a big IF) the floor happens to be compatible with v2 firmware, this is the plan:

-get yourself a floor at discount price (they are 175$ sometimes)
-upgrade to V2 firmware when available
-place the mustang floor in the effects loop of you other Mustang 3-4-5 v1 amp that you might already have
-configure only effects on the mustang v1, using the empty preset (no amp emulation)
-configure any other effects (even repeated ones) on the floor, using the v2 new amp models and all

that would be wonderful, and you get also the expresion pedal that comes with the floor. and all for 175 extra bucks, and no v2 Tolex with it :)

now, the only piece of information missing is if the floor is going to be upgradeable...
Fender, did you notice I'm making YOU a business case here? c'mon!


Interesting thought, honorable Jedi. Actually, seeing that the amp already has USB capability, I wonder if it would be possible for Fender to sell an external upgraded DSP that would connect via USB and supplement the amps internal processor. Package that in a floor unit with extra switches and an expression pedal... I'd buy that.

For now I am using a Zoom G2Next (Laugh at me, I deserve it) for boost, overdrive, distortion, or equalization as needed, which actually isn't often. Boost and equalization are the most useful to me. Also makes for a serviceable floor tuner. I'll probably have to suck it in and pay for a few good pedals at some point.

I never use the onboard wah... i picked up a Morley Bad Horsey when I got the amp. I'd still take an expression pedal for volume and other effects though.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:17 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
Scorpaeon wrote:
Why then, if I may be so bold to ask without being made to feel like a retard, were the Mustang I and II able to use the additional amp models that only became available after the Mustang III - V were released? Were those extra models already installed on the MI & II DSP chips as a forethought? The MIII - V weren't released till like a year later. Why wouldn't they just make those extra models available if they were in fact already available. Just saying, it doesn't jive.


If you look back, those amps were already available on the Mustang I and II. They're just not hot-selectable BY DEFAULT on the amp's faceplate presets, hence why they're not labeled as such. You had to go into FUSE to change those presets, like I did.

When they redid the line for the Mustang 3, 4, and 5, they changed the faceplate and added a lot more controls so that you didn't need FUSE so much to make detailed changes. It was probably one of the biggest complaints users of the M1/M2 had. Not everyone had a netbook to tote to gigs or whatever with them...just to use their amps. With the LCD and the selector wheel, you have a lot more control.

And for the record, this "discussion" you're trying to hold...you're prompting it with what sounds like complaints as opposed to directed and intelligent questions. You're saying "I don't see why Fender can't just do X unless they're just money nazis..." instead of asking "WHY can't Fender do X? Are the amps even capable of X?" If the answer is that it CAN and Fender just isn't doing it, THEN start insinuating that Fender's playing a corporate game, but don't do that BEFORE you get an aswer to the first question - because then you just look like a child.

Because if the amps WERE part of the firmware updates, then why can't you access the bass amps that are in the Fender Bronco? Hmmm? Why can't you get the extra amps that are in the Super-Champ X2? Because they're not part of the firmware. They're part of the ROM chips for the DSP. They're hard-coded. They'd HAVE to be for the amp to start up as fast as it does now.

And that brings up an interesting thought. Does anyone that visits this forum and reads this thread actually HAVE a Super-Champ X2? We could use an amp list and compare...see if Fender's just adding those amps to the Mustang line or if they're going to be different amp models altogether. Hmm.

Completely different modeling engines: Cyber I vs. Cyber II.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:44 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
If you look back, those amps were already available on the Mustang I and II.

Ok, I ask again that you forgive my ignorance. I never owned a Mustang I or II. Looking back I can recall that when they were originally released they were advertised as having 8 authentic amp models, I guess I assumed that the additional amp models weren't available until the III - V came out and both FUSE and firmware received several rounds of updates. My bad.

FFXIhealer wrote:
You're saying "I don't see why Fender can't just do X unless they're just money nazis... [and insinuating that Fender is playing some corporate game]

No. You are reading way to much into it and making your own insinuations. Remember me from the Fizz threads?! I'm the #1 Mustang III V.1 Fanboy! The self righteous defender of Fender Corporation's honor. You really think this is the intent of my posts, even after I've already clarified it for you?
Scopraeon wrote:
I love my Mustang III V.1 and have no intention of upgrading any time soon. The new features INCLUDING the new amp models are not enough for me to scrap my V.1 just yet. And yes, it just so happens that I agree with you, It's $329 for V.2 -- If I really wanted one, I'd get one -- That's not the issue! I just thought that it would be cool IF it was possible for Fender to make it happen, that they would make the new models available to V.1 owners.


FFXIhealer wrote:
instead of asking "WHY can't Fender do X? Are the amps even capable of X?"

That's exactly what I did to begin with!!!! and you even answered me! Remember!?!
Scorpeaon wrote:
Ok, so the V.2 has a new chip -- but if it still uses the same modeling engine, and it still uses FUSE as it's computer interface, then why couldn't V.1 users access the new amp models and effects when they connect to FUSE. Unless there is some new hardware compatibility issue or unless Fender writes into the software to block us from them.

There's no need to act like a douche.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:31 am
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Let's just regroup here:

1) Yes, there is a new chip in V.2

2) Could us V.1ers get upgraded via firmware? Fender says no. But. Fender upgraded the MI and MII folks via D/L with the new models of the MIII, so we know it is theoretically possible.

3) So Fender is either lying about the new models and EFX being so awesome they can only live on the new chip, or they're telling the truth.

4) If they're lying, it's because marketing needed cover: the rushed-to-market and not-ready-for-primetime V.2 is REALLY about fizzkill, which they can't admit ever happened, so they needed cover and a reason to buy the new amps: new models and EFX.

5) If they gave those away to V.1ers, what's the incentive to buy V.2?? Remember, Fender can't admit there ever was a Fizzgate so they can't use that as a marketing point! All they can do is go wink wink nudge nudge and mutter "new low-noise power supply platform" under their breath like they're selling girly pics to Mormons.

Point being, we may never know if the new models and EFX REQUIRE the new chip. My take would be, of course not, this is all driven by the marketing division. Just as the outrageous Fizzgate press release was driven by their legal dept.

Note how Fender techs jump in here at will over minor issues like headphones, but they avoid these critical issues like the plague. Because there's nothing they can say about them. These things are verboten. Off limits. Orders from on high. Legal issues galore.

Now if they REALLY wanted to sell V.2s, all they'd have to do is say: " We've put a ton of memory and processing power into the new V.2 chip, and consequently we're going to be able to load tons of new models and EFX into it via FUSE D/Ls as time goes on!"

But of course, that might make actual sense. And Fender is not always that quick on the draw sense-wise.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:07 am
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Musicmaster2 wrote:

5) If they gave those away to V.1ers, what's the incentive to buy V.2?? Remember, Fender can't admit there ever was a Fizzgate so they can't use that as a marketing point!


Musicmaster2,

First let me say that I for one appreciate your having contacted Fender and passed along to us what you learned. I've seen the several personal attacks on you from other forum members in various threads, and all I can say is that the world is full of still-evolving people who don't think twice before reacting, and that all we can do is shrug our shoulders and live with it. You are not the problem here. The problem is Fender's lack of communication on a whole host of issues.

With regard to your above post, I don't think Fender is lying. If the information you were given turns out to be incorrect, I think it's more a case of the person you spoke with not having the latest information, or--as was implied in your post--maybe Fender hasn't even decided yet what to do.

Also, I don't think Fender's main goal is to get V.1 users to upgrade to V.2. I don't think they see V.1 owners as the target customers for the V.2. There's not enough that's different for them to really expect that. I think they're first going after people who don't yet own a modeling amp, second after those that have been holding off because of the adverse "fizz" publicity, and lastly after those v.1 owners who can't live with the fizz. If Fender wanted to earn more money from current v.1 owners, especially in light of the fizz, they should figure out a price at which they can make a little profit, and offer v.1 owners a trade-in at that reduced price.

I do agree with you that the limited changes such as the xlr line out and new models/pedals are being used as an excuse to fix the fizz without it looking like they're correcting a defect. If they just started issuing fizz-free v.1's, every v.1 owner would say "aha, why did you fix it if it ain't broken? Gimme a fixed v.1."

My recollection is that several amp models were not available on the I and II--the Deluxe Reverb, Princeton, 57 Champ--and that they were added via firmware upgrades. So I think it is possible for v.1 owners to get the new amp models. But I also think Fender's lawyers and marketers are still deciding whether to pass those along to us.

About ten years ago I spent several hundred dollars on a Magellan Marine handheld GPS. They supported it with updates for about two years, then discontinued the model without ever having fixed all the issues. I have never--nor will I ever--purchase another Magellan product again. I don't care if this is supposedly the new "normal," I felt ripped off. I buy Garmin now--they've factored in free updates for life into the price, and that's correct way to do it.

Fender--are you listening?


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:16 am
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cormorant wrote:
Musicmaster2,


Hi cormorant, I see you've posted something new, did you notice my PM from a couple of days ago?

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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:29 pm
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well it seems other marketing gurus have been listening to the crowd more than the Fender ones. I mean this is the description of the features of the competition's new amp, that includes pretty much all that was requested in THIS forum I think:

Acoustic guitar simulation
Bass guitar simulation
36 onboard amp models
Six bass amp models
Six acoustic amp models
On-board looper
Bi-directional USB - Data - MIDI - Audio record out
Studio quality headphone out
Up to four effects simultaneously

I will let you guess whose amps I'm talking about... and all for less money then the Mustangs V2


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:58 pm
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cormorant wrote:
Musicmaster2 wrote:

5) If they gave those away to V.1ers, what's the incentive to buy V.2?? Remember, Fender can't admit there ever was a Fizzgate so they can't use that as a marketing point!


Musicmaster2,

First let me say that I for one appreciate your having contacted Fender and passed along to us what you learned. I've seen the several personal attacks on you from other forum members in various threads, and all I can say is that the world is full of still-evolving people who don't think twice before reacting, and that all we can do is shrug our shoulders and live with it. You are not the problem here. The problem is Fender's lack of communication on a whole host of issues.

With regard to your above post, I don't think Fender is lying. If the information you were given turns out to be incorrect, I think it's more a case of the person you spoke with not having the latest information, or--as was implied in your post--maybe Fender hasn't even decided yet what to do.

Also, I don't think Fender's main goal is to get V.1 users to upgrade to V.2. I don't think they see V.1 owners as the target customers for the V.2. There's not enough that's different for them to really expect that. I think they're first going after people who don't yet own a modeling amp, second after those that have been holding off because of the adverse "fizz" publicity, and lastly after those v.1 owners who can't live with the fizz. If Fender wanted to earn more money from current v.1 owners, especially in light of the fizz, they should figure out a price at which they can make a little profit, and offer v.1 owners a trade-in at that reduced price.

I do agree with you that the limited changes such as the xlr line out and new models/pedals are being used as an excuse to fix the fizz without it looking like they're correcting a defect. If they just started issuing fizz-free v.1's, every v.1 owner would say "aha, why did you fix it if it ain't broken? Gimme a fixed v.1."

My recollection is that several amp models were not available on the I and II--the Deluxe Reverb, Princeton, 57 Champ--and that they were added via firmware upgrades. So I think it is possible for v.1 owners to get the new amp models. But I also think Fender's lawyers and marketers are still deciding whether to pass those along to us.

About ten years ago I spent several hundred dollars on a Magellan Marine handheld GPS. They supported it with updates for about two years, then discontinued the model without ever having fixed all the issues. I have never--nor will I ever--purchase another Magellan product again. I don't care if this is supposedly the new "normal," I felt ripped off. I buy Garmin now--they've factored in free updates for life into the price, and that's correct way to do it.

Fender--are you listening?

The Fender CSR I talked to was already somewhat informed, but he left to talk to his tech guy(s) for a few minutes on the issues, and then returned with info straight from the lab. So it seems pretty solid info. But as you say, Fender can always change their mind.

I tend to agree: the old chip could most likely handle the new models and EFX. This is just a marketing decision. But in most ways, the new V.2 is better than the old--just the move to standard black tolex is a bit questionable. I asked him about that and said he wasn't sure why the switch, whether it was availability of the carbon fiber or just a cost issue.

But usually with chip upgrades they find a way to build them cheaper and smaller, saves on manufacturing costs. That seems to be the case here. We're all going to love to hear the first reviews of V.2 to see if they are, indeed, fizz-free and perhaps with even a lower ambient noise level. And those new models and EFX, though I doubt they're going to be all that Earth-shattering. The more models, the more soundalike they start to get.

But I'm like most here: My MIII doesn't fizz in any way affecting real-world performance in a band setting, so I'm happy with my carbon-fiber tone monster for now!


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