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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:31 am
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It really doesn't make sense for Fender to announce whether V1 owners will have access to the new models/effects via fuse at some point, at this time. If I were them I'd probably wait till intial sales of the V2 were out and some time had passed.

While I see the point of those that feel Fender is in the right if they chose to exclude us from these new software features I will say this ... They've been asking this communicty for months "What would you like to see in future upgrades?" ... I think to ask us for feedback, then exclude us from the results/benefits, really alienates thier most loyal fanbase. Its not the route I'd go as a businessman. Companies could get away with that a decade ago, not anymore.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:22 am
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I hope we get something, even if it's just one new amp model.
I suggested a while back that fender include a pre-amp amp model so an acoustic guitar can be used with the mustang amps. It would be nice if we got that atleast. The Hi-Watt amp model should be real clean with lots of headroom, I would really like to have that as well.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:49 am
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CNY Scott wrote:
I hope we get something, even if it's just one new amp model.
I suggested a while back that fender include a pre-amp amp model so an acoustic guitar can be used with the mustang amps. It would be nice if we got that atleast. The Hi-Watt amp model should be real clean with lots of headroom, I would really like to have that as well.


Yeah.. that would be a nice thing to have. +1


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:50 pm
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Ok, so the V.2 has a new chip -- but if it still uses the same modeling engine, and it still uses FUSE as it's computer interface, then why couldn't V.1 users access the new amp models and effects when they connect to FUSE. Unless there is some new hardware compatibility issue or unless Fender writes into the software to block us from them.

I would like to believe that if its possible for V.1 users to access the new models in FUSE that Fender would allow us to do so. They didn't exclude Mustang I & II users from the additional models available on the III - V. It only makes sense. The Mustangs are "the best selling amps in the world". Fender doesn't need V.1 users to upgrade to a V.2. The just need to continue selling amps, which they will, whether or not those new models are avialable to current owners.

The new V.2 features are interesting enough to persuade potential buyers who are on the fence about a Mustang to hop on board. But not interesting enough to persuade legions of Mustang owners to go out and buy new ones (although some will). I'm pretty sure the Fender R&D people thought this out, and hopefully they were thoughtful enough to want to keep us current customers happy and loyal.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:06 pm
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The only tidbit of info from my phone call with Fender I didn't report was a touch fuzzy. The CSR said, "So when we update presets or other stuff for V.2 in FUSE, the V.1 users will get older substitutes for those elements that aren't available in their hardware set." You can interpret that any way you want, that's just what he said.Image


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:11 pm
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jedi2b wrote:
when and if Fender comes up with V3, including the V1 amp tolex and metal jacks I might consider upgrading... :mrgreen:

in the meantime I have everything I need with the V1

For those in desperate need of the upgrade, when it becomes a reality and supposing it works eventually better than the v1 (new DSP = new code arghhh), I guess if your amp eventually "breaks" you are going to get a v2 replacement...

another option would be, if fender makes available spare parts, to buy and replace the boards and you get an instant v2 in a v1 package (I frankly have no idea how or where to buy fender replacement parts)

My understanding is the Mustang line is in the "do not repair" category. I experienced this with my MII. The amp just gets shipped back to Fender and replaced with a "new" one. The one I got was clean and new-looking, but out of the box with zero accessories, not even a power cable. Is that new or recycled? Only Fender knows for sure. But for many of their latest tech products Fender has this policy. Maybe they throw 'em into a landfill!


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:14 pm
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Fender has never suggested that new models or EFX would ever be available via D/L. Their plan seems to be that these will only be available via hardware upgrades. Features and capabilities and presets and fixes yes, but not models or EFX.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:52 pm
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
The only tidbit of info from my phone call with Fender I didn't report was a touch fuzzy. The CSR said, "So when we update presets or other stuff for V.2 in FUSE, the V.1 users will get older substitutes for those elements that aren't available in their hardware set." You can interpret that any way you want, that's just what he said.Image


The software "knows" what hardware it is connected to, V1 or V2. Lets say the V2 Pitchshifter has 6 rulers, 6 parameters to tweak. The V1 has just five. On old systems, the old pitchshifter is grafically displayed in Fuse, and unknown parameters in the presets are ignored, also by the firmware. In Fuse connected to V2 you'll see the new one and all parameters are processed- I guess soon we will see the way they solved it in the XML-coding of preset files for V2.


-------------- Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam -------------
We are discussing V2. The majority of unexperienced Mustang V1 users still have the "frozen-knobs-bug" and others. Because the Beta 2.6.1.35 which solves this problems stays a Beta since July 2012 and is not shipped with new amps. See the headlines on the board. Better fix the software for the allready bought products before introducing new ones. With new bugs.
Get rid of the IE / Silverlight platform for Fuse. Make it run on modern tabletts and smartphones. And on old Notebooks with <1GB Ram which we can use in rehearsal room without fearing big financial loss if we poor a coffee or bottle of beer over them.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:42 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
Ok, so the V.2 has a new chip -- but if it still uses the same modeling engine, and it still uses FUSE as it's computer interface, then why couldn't V.1 users access the new amp models and effects when they connect to FUSE. Unless there is some new hardware compatibility issue or unless Fender writes into the software to block us from them.


You don't understand the relationship between FUSE and the Mustang amp. The Mustang amp's DSP chip is where all the amp models and effects and settings are stored. FUSE is nothing more than a pretty interface for you to be able to tweak all of those settings. You can't use the new amp models in the V.1 amps because the amp models LITERALLY are not on the Mustang's DSP chip. They'd have to be put there from manufacture for them to work.

Firmwares update the DSP's manipulation and I/O code, not the amp models buried inside. This is why an update won't add new amps or effects, but CAN add EXP-1 functionality (as that has to do with the I/O of the DSP - see above).

You can cry, $@!&*, and moan all you want, but you can't change the laws of physics and the rules of reality to suit your whims. The Fender V.1 amps simply ARE. And you paid a CHEAP price for such an amp compared to other companies that offer you less for 2x-5x the price.

If you're that hard up for the new amp models and stomp boxes, then earn another 2-400 dollars and get the new one. Put your old one up on Craig's List or the Bay and hope someone buys it, or keep it as a 2nd amp or backup spare.

But for God's sake, please stop complaining that your $300 amp doesn't have EVERYTHING everyone everywhere could possibly want, plus infinite upgrading for stuff Fender hasn't even thought of for years down the road.

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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:54 pm
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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:17 am
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FFXIhealer wrote:
The Mustang amp's DSP chip is where all the amp models and effects and settings are stored. FUSE is nothing more than a pretty interface for you to be able to tweak all of those settings. You can't use the new amp models in the V.1 amps because the amp models LITERALLY are not on the Mustang's DSP chip. They'd have to be put there from manufacture for them to work.

My only question here is: How do you know that the amp and effect modeling are not also part of the firmware?

There are no tubes in my MIII, and I doubt that a specialised CPU was provided. So I would think that amp and effects are also generated by software. The issue is whether their compiled logic is part of the normal firmware, or perhaps held in a separate ROM.

Not wanting to give up hope just yet.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:07 am
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It is just like a computer. DSP is the processor and Firmware is the software layer (like BIOS/Windows/whatever). Firmware may be stored inside the DSP (embedded hardware) or in an external memory. This change nothing from our point of view. Amps and Fx are part of the firmware (stored data and algos...). I guess that fender use a slightly different architecture for the V2. I think that DSP has the same performance (there are no tips that the old model in the new V2 are any better...) but with a larger firmware memory that allows for more features.

Fender used the augmented memory to store some new feature. Maybe the one that where wanted the most:

a better selection of overdrives
an intelligent pitch shifter (armonizer...)
the ability to mix od with wah

some feature like ability of od+comp still not there... maybe fender fillup the new DSP and this will wait until the V3 comes...

There will be a better product in the shelfs tomorrow. This is good! If you burn your Mustang and you like it as much as i like it today, you can go out and buy a new better one!

Someone will upgrade and someone else will have the chance to get a good, used V1 :).

I am doing very good with my V1, i have found spots for Mesa 2c+ tones, ENGL and Soldano. I really do not need nothing more than that... but i am a tech geek and maybe i will do the upgrade (buy a V2...) for the trill of mess with something new! :D :D :D

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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:25 am
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The Sympony DSP used on V1 amps are general purpose dual core DSPs, there are no tube models "inside" the DSP. The same chip is used on home theatres and audio processing appliances.
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/tec ... 725AF.aspx

As you can see they cost 9 bucks retail price... not particularly specialized stuff.

The DSPs include some RAM memory that gets loaded at boot time from the firmware stored on a erasable onboard flash memory, as any of these gizmos has been doing for the las 10 years.

amp emulations, as any other effect on these machines are based on mathematical algorithms, and do not consume specialized extra resources per se, that's why you have software like amplitube around. Most of the emulations present on the mustang 1 series were already available on the prehistoric cybertwin amps, so they just recycled their RD from back then. New hardware gave them the opportunity to have smoother emulations but the core models have not changed much I bet (indeed you can use cybertwin documentation to understand parameter tweaking on the mustangs LOL)

If these things get popular enough, at some point somebody will compile a linux distro for it, then wan can run whatever emulation we want on it, not just what fender cares to develop.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:05 am
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jedi2b wrote:
The Sympony DSP used on V1 amps are general purpose dual core DSPs, there are no tube models "inside" the DSP. The same chip is used on home theatres and audio processing appliances.
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/tec ... 725AF.aspx

As you can see they cost 9 bucks retail price... not particularly specialized stuff.

The DSPs include some RAM memory that gets loaded at boot time from the firmware stored on a erasable onboard flash memory, as any of these gizmos has been doing for the las 10 years.

amp emulations, as any other effect on these machines are based on mathematical algorithms, and do not consume specialized extra resources per se, that's why you have software like amplitube around. Most of the emulations present on the mustang 1 series were already available on the prehistoric cybertwin amps, so they just recycled their RD from back then. New hardware gave them the opportunity to have smoother emulations but the core models have not changed much I bet (indeed you can use cybertwin documentation to understand parameter tweaking on the mustangs LOL)

If these things get popular enough, at some point somebody will compile a linux distro for it, then wan can run whatever emulation we want on it, not just what fender cares to develop.


I like the linux distro concept. Fender doesn't really make money off of "software". If they turned the amp into an open source playground, it would probably make the hardware a lot more attractive to people.


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Post subject: Re: No Upgrade Path for Mustang V.1 Folks!
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:15 am
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FFXIhealer wrote:
Scorpaeon wrote:
Ok, so the V.2 has a new chip -- but if it still uses the same modeling engine, and it still uses FUSE as it's computer interface, then why couldn't V.1 users access the new amp models and effects when they connect to FUSE. Unless there is some new hardware compatibility issue or unless Fender writes into the software to block us from them.


You don't understand the relationship between FUSE and the Mustang amp. The Mustang amp's DSP chip is where all the amp models and effects and settings are stored. FUSE is nothing more than a pretty interface for you to be able to tweak all of those settings. You can't use the new amp models in the V.1 amps because the amp models LITERALLY are not on the Mustang's DSP chip. They'd have to be put there from manufacture for them to work.

Firmwares update the DSP's manipulation and I/O code, not the amp models buried inside. This is why an update won't add new amps or effects, but CAN add EXP-1 functionality (as that has to do with the I/O of the DSP - see above).

You can cry, $@!&*, and moan all you want, but you can't change the laws of physics and the rules of reality to suit your whims. The Fender V.1 amps simply ARE. And you paid a CHEAP price for such an amp compared to other companies that offer you less for 2x-5x the price.

If you're that hard up for the new amp models and stomp boxes, then earn another 2-400 dollars and get the new one. Put your old one up on Craig's List or the Bay and hope someone buys it, or keep it as a 2nd amp or backup spare.

But for God's sake, please stop complaining that your $300 amp doesn't have EVERYTHING everyone everywhere could possibly want, plus infinite upgrading for stuff Fender hasn't even thought of for years down the road.

First of all, thank you for answering my question. I'm glad there are some electrical engineers around here to explain these things.

Second of all it, it was a question. Not crying, $@!&*ing, or moaning. If you read my entire post in context, I don't think it comes across as such. But since you felt the need to berate me for it, now I feel the need set the record straight...

I love my Mustang III V.1 and have no intention of upgrading any time soon. The new features INCLUDING the new amp models are not enough for me to scrap my V.1 just yet. And yes, it just so happens that I agree with you, It's $329 for V.2 -- If I really wanted one, I'd get one -- That's not the issue! I just thought that it would be cool IF it was possible for Fender to make it happen, that they would make the new models available to V.1 owners.

That's all. Nothing more meant to be implied here. No tears on my keyboard.


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