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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:21 am
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Wherever Leo is, he must be fuming at how the company with his name is handling this issue. The support staff have their hands tied. There is obviously a gag order on this discussion. I wonder if the originator of this policy even knows how to use a soldering iron?

Probably can do a good tie knot.

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:05 am
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Leo is dead, God bless his soul. Sorry to be blunt. I can understand Fender's problem. The problem is inconsistent and when evident, can significantly vary in severity. The problem may be present and not noticed unless parameters on the amp are adjusted to create the highest possibility of hiss.

I have to look at it from my perspective; overseeing the development of an electronic device, manufacture, qc, software engineering and marketing. In each area, there's a business decision that constrains the product's development.

You have margins to work within and you try to produce the best product possible within your constraints. But there comes a time when you have to stop and say "It's good enough." I haven't been able to find any claim or warranty that the Mustang amps meet a certain standard of audiophile performance.

There's no guarantee that one amp model is x% equal to the sampled original. Heck, you can't pick any two handwired tube amps and analyze them and guarantee they are identical.

I have been impressed with Fender's quality. They have made a huge comeback. They are offering a very wide range of products to suit many price levels. But in the end, they are a company that has to make money and pay shareholders a return.

Right now, with the hiss issue, I think the problem is too inconsistent and highly variable. I would say Fender is handling the issue in the best way from a sound business perspective. If you read the thread, which I finally did, you could intentially create parameters where the hiss is present and 100% of all Mustang 3,4 & 5 amps could be returned for warranty and repair for an issue that 90% of the users would never have known existed.

This isn't considering any outside affects of electrical supply condition. Really, you need a lab to isolate the issue. You know, there are so many factors that can harm electrical devices or affect their function. (voltage abnomalies)

Fender, I'm saying that you probably are handling this the best way you can. You aren't selling perfect devices and are definitely not charging for perfection.

I'm not an electrical engineer or software engineer but work with them every day. I can see where Fender is coming from here.

Ok, let the flaming begin.

Merry Christmas and I hope everyone's family is safe and happy!

Chris


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:11 am
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Hey Robinson,

I agree with everything you say except one point.
I work with customers every day, particularly unhappy customers that have or suspect they have technical problems with the products they bought. I learned one thing well enough: if you provide vague answers (or no answers at all) to the customer when they complain, they are entitled to think that the worst possible scenario is true. It's human nature.

So in this particular situation every Mustang owner is entitled to think, based on the lousy Fender communicate that, for example, after two years the Mustangs will degrade to a point that they are going to be useless as musical amplifiers.

Unless you work for government, answering "I have no comments" is not a real option in 2012.

I would expect them at least to do some damage control and state what is going to be the worst possible impact of the fizz issue, if nothing else, to prevent people thinking the issue is worst than it is.


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:59 am
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jedi2b wrote:
if you provide vague answers (or no answers at all) to the customer when they complain, they are entitled to think that the worst possible scenario is true. It's human nature.......Unless you work for government, answering "I have no comments" is not a real option in 2012.


I don't find this vague:

"Dear Fender Mustang Community,

We are aware of the various discussions regarding the “fizz” phenomenon, in which some Mustang amp users notice sound that they find undesirable. We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers.

The simple truth is that while we were able to include great tones and many useful features into an extremely affordable box, within the vast array of sounds, some discerning listeners may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation. Nevertheless, legions of Mustang amp users have proven and agree that the Mustang amplifier series delivers great value, versatility and sound.

As a forward-thinking company of musicians, we always welcome all consumer opinion and insight that helps drive our constant development of innovative new products. Technology moves fast, and so we continue to develop products that offer guitarists newer and better tools to make music.

Best Regards,
The Fender Tech Support Lab"


If you were Fender, what would your statement on the subject have been?

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:43 am
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I like that statement. Clear.

Has it been proven that after 2 years a Mustang amp degrades to the point of uselessness? How do you determine "uselessness"?

Thanks,

Chris


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:15 am
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Nobody has proven that all Fender Mustang III-V amps degrade over time. We only have testimonials to go by, and those can be misleading.

Fender has not made an official statement acknowledging a period of degradation, followed by complete failure. AFAIK, the above statement is the only official statement that has been released.

How do you determine 'uselessness'? Well since these amps have a headphone jack and can pass audio through USB, it would take failures in multiple areas to render it useless, other than a complete failure of the amp to start up.

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:17 am
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Hi,

the statement does not answer the posted question, which is to know if the fizz can worsen over time (as some people claim) or not.

I love my Mustang 3 and frankly I do not believe solid state electronics would "deteriorate" over time, so I tried to give Fender a hand asking for it.

I was asking for a response in the lines of: "if you like the sound of your Mustang today, it is the same quality of sound you can expect in the future"

Instead I got something in the lines of :"unable to comment" which I think was really dumb.


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:30 am
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The truth is everything degrades over time, even solid state. It's just a matter of how much time. And of course, YMMV ... if I buy the same make/model car as my brother, manufactured the same date, using the same parts, purchased on the same date, at the same car dealership, I mean the same exact car, can we assume they will last the same exact amount of time before there is trouble or failure?

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:26 pm
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Fender TSL wrote:
Hi jedi2b,

We understand your frustration here. And we are not trying to be evasive. The previous response is our best advice in this case. We apologize that we cannot offer additional information regarding this for you.

Regards,


I guess one can be evasive without even trying.

I don't even use my MIII any more. I plug my CP Jazzmaster into the 65 Twin setting to see if the fizz has by some miracle been cured, listen the the sitar-like artifact zizzing along with my note like Peter Frampton with that whatever-it-was in his mouth, get disgusted and turn it off.

Hiss I can live with. I can't live with this. I just want to turn it in and get my money back. This is not what was advertised.


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:55 pm
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Read between the lines:
Fender TSL wrote:
we cannot offer additional information regarding this for you.

This answers the question about these amps degrading over time. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

cormorant wrote:
Hiss I can live with. I can't live with this.

Sell it.

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:05 pm
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What's the market price for an MIII with a pronounced and annoying fizz? Or should I be like Fender and just not disclose it and then stonewall the sucker who bought it?


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:03 pm
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What I don't understand is why the Fender engineers don't say exactly what the fault is - unpredictable though it may be. Then skilled owners could at least consider if it is worth a repair.
I guess the company cannot afford to honour multiple returns when most users can live with it - and you guys in the US have 5yr guarantees.

It's also kind of weird that no non-Fender electronics expert has been able to say definitively "this is the problem".
FWIW I notice some sitar like fizz on my MII but I can ignore it, it's minimal - anyway the MII doesn't have the problem, does it..
It's spreading by thought transfer !


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:26 pm
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cormorant wrote:
What's the market price for an MIII with a pronounced and annoying fizz?


what does it cost to put an ad on craigslist and just be honest about what it can and can't do? There's pretty likely some metal-head out there who doesn't care about a good clean sound if he (or she) can get a 100 watt amp cheap.

And if there's not, give it away. You obviously have no use for it except to get your self gassed up for another rant on the Fender forum.

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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:20 am
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@strings--since you are satisfied with your amp you have no dog in this fight, and I submit you have no business criticizing those that do. What are you, Fender's little white knight? I and several others resent having been misled and then ignored by Fender, and I have no problem returning here periodically to make my feelings known. If you lose sleep over this, I suggest you spend more time playing with your perfect little amp and less time trying provoke people (unless that gives you some kind of perverse satisfaction).

Merry Christmas.


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Post subject: Re: Decisions, Decisions!
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:36 pm
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honestly, I'm just a little tired of hearing your same old tune. Do whatever you want though, I have no power here.

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