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Post subject: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:04 pm
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Hi All,
Im right on the edge of buying a Mustang III to replace an old Marshall MG100DFX (a big step from what I've read!) and just wanted to ask:

I've read that the Mustang III's line out mutes the internal speaker, but have also read that Fender officially recommend using the Effects Loop send to line into a PA but leave the speaker intact for monitoring purposes. If that's true, can anyone confirm:


Is the FX loop send post-everything, as in the only thing after it in the chain is the amp's speaker? Modelling, cab emulation, reverb etc would all be sent to the PA?

Can the Master Volume dial on the amp be adjusted freely (for monitoring volume) without affecting the volume of the signal on the FX send. I.E., if i turned up Master Volume on stage, the volume to the PA would stay the same? (This is currently how the "headphone/line out" works on my Marshall.


Could I still use effects pedals in the effects loop, by using these connections:

Guitar > Pre-amp FX pedals (e.g. compression) > Mustang III > FX send to Modulation pedals (e.g. delay) > Mono splitter, one lead to PA, second lead to effects return on amp


Hope this makes sense and thanks for the help.
Adam


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:55 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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The signal flow looks something like this:

Guitar -> Input Jack -> DSP [stomp effects -> amp model -> post effects -> speaker cabinet simulation] -> FX Loop Send -> FX Loop Return -> (Master Volume) -> AUX Input -> Headphone Output -> Solid-State Power Amplifier -> Speaker output

If you follow that, it will tell you where everything in the amp fits.

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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:00 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hi,

You have a volume control on the amp and a master volume control. The master volume control only controls the volume of the power amp of the mustang but does not affect in anything the output of the preamp (which is what you get at the line out)


The FX loop send connection:
-is controlled in volume with the volume knob
-does NOT mute the amp speaker ( so you may use your amp speaker as a monitor)
So if you only need to send to a PA and have a monitor that is all you need to do

As soon as you connect a cable to the FX loop return the preamp to amp signal gets blocked

So if you need to send audio to a PA and at the same time use some sort of external pedal placed after the preamp in the chain
-connect from fx send to a splitter, split to the PA and to your external pedal
-from the pedal get back to the fx return

The only drawback of this connection is that you will not get the pedal effect on your PA

Hope this helps

Jed12b


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:32 pm
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Hi there,

greenstarthree wrote:
I've read that the Mustang III's line out mutes the internal speaker...


No, whoever wrote that was mistaken. The signal is interrupted (and overridden) by whatever you plug into the return, not the send.

Quote:
Is the FX loop send post-everything, as in the only thing after it in the chain is the amp's speaker? Modelling, cab emulation, reverb etc would all be sent to the PA?


Pretty much, yes.

Quote:
Can the Master Volume dial on the amp be adjusted freely (for monitoring volume) without affecting the volume of the signal on the FX send.


Yes.

Quote:
I.E., if i turned up Master Volume on stage, the volume to the PA would stay the same? (This is currently how the "headphone/line out" works on my Marshall.


The headphone out *will* mute the speaker, and the headphone volume *is* controlled by the Mustang's master volume (not to be confused with the modeled amplifier's volume).

Quote:
Could I still use effects pedals in the effects loop, by using these connections:

Guitar > Pre-amp FX pedals (e.g. compression) > Mustang III > FX send to Modulation pedals (e.g. delay) > Mono splitter, one lead to PA, second lead to effects return on amp


Yes, that would do exactly what you expect it to.

HTH,

PITA


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:36 pm
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Hi Adam,

It looks like you have gotten some good information here. I wanted to clarify a couple of items. The effects loop on the Fender Mustang III amp can be used either as a dedicated 'post' pre-amp effects insert or it can be used as a line out. When used as a line out, you do not need to have the effects return connected to 'close' the loop. You can simply use the send and 'tap' the post pre-amp signal for use as a line output.

In regard to the Master volume control, yes you can use it to control the volume level coming out of the speaker and it does not effect the volume level coming out of the effects send or headphone/USB outputs.

In answer to your idea about the split of the effects send signal, this should be doable, although we have not tested this specific set up in the Technology Support Lab. Essentially, you would be tapping signal out of the effects loop via the output of an actual effect in the chain, instead of taking the signal directly form the amp. The only drawback I could think of would be a possible loss of quality in the output signal if the effect you were using was not the cleanest in terms of the audio signal. Otherwise, it should work. Please let us know if we can assist further as you make your decision.

Best Regards,

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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:18 am
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Thanks everyone for your replies and detailed info – it’s good to know answers are so easily available from both users and Fender staff.

I see the point about an FX pedal degrading the signal, but presumably if I was just using the FX loop just as an FX loop, and had a bad sounding pedal in there, I’d only be sending that back to the amp anyway? Should the theory be ‘sound sent to PA = sound sent to amp’ ?

I luckily have a band practice tonight so I’ll try splitting from the FX pedals in the loop of my Marshall and sending one lead to the mixer. I guess this should at least tell me how the pedals will behave albeit with a different amp. I’ll post back with the results in case they’re of any use.

On another note, how would sending audio out of the USB port on the Mustang behave – would a standard USB to monojack cable work or is this purely for connecting to PC/Mac?

Thanks again,
Adam


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:42 pm
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Hi Adam,

I'm glad that we can be of assistance. In regard to the question of possible degradation of audio signal on a pedal attached to the Effects loop, it could affect the audio signal going to the PA if you are tapping signal from the pedal's output. If you split your signal before the pedal's input, you should be able to avoid this. And the USB adapter cable will not work with the Mustang's USB post to go to analog audio. Please let us know if we can assist further.

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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:31 am
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Hi again everyone!

Well, my Mustang III was delivered yesterday, and had it's first try-out at band practice last night. I love the huge range of sounds it's capable of, and I've had a very quick play with the FUSE software too, which seems great. I just have a couple of further questions about lining out to the PA:

I tried connecting as mentioned before:

Guitar > Pre-amp pedals > AMP INPUT > FX Send > FX Loop pedals > Splitter > FX Return and Mixer.

With this setup I got sound through the mixer, but even with the amp on a clean setting (eg Basic 65 Twin) there was some light breakup (like mild distortion) in the sound through the PA. The channel wasn't clipping, but the distortion was there at any volume, and even with the amp's Gain dial set very low.

I tried running the FX Send straight to the mixer, bypassing the pedals, and got the same sound. Admittedly I did forget to unplug from the FX Return in this test - not sure if that would make a difference?

The other thing I noticed was, with the above setup, if I left the amp on the clean 65 Twin preset, and switched on an overdrive pedal (connected before the amp's input), the sound from the PA was quite 'flat' - didn't sound like the pedal at all.
If I turned up the master volume, the sound from the amp's speaker was as expected, and if I used the PHONES output on the amp into the mixer, the PA sounded just like the amp speaker.

The only thing that came to mind was, is the FX send on the Mustang definitely POST Amp/Speaker/Cab emulation? It just seemed like what I was getting out of the FX send was an 'untreated' sound?

Admittedly I only tested things really briefly and I have a small mixer at home where I can test things fully, but I just wanted to share the above and see if you guys had any suggestions?

Thanks very much!
Adam


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:44 am
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so what's the problem with micing the amp like you'd normally do? :?:


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:07 am
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Mainly that I don't have an instrument mic. :P ..! But also because my ideal would be to line into the PA and still use the amp's speaker for on-stage monitoring. That is, to be able to adjust the master volume dial freely without it affecting the levels for the audience.

The sound from the headphones jack is fine, as I say, but this mutes the built in speaker and is affected by the master volume dial.

Cheers,
Adam


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:48 am
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Quote:
Quote:
greenstarthree wrote:
I've read that the Mustang III's line out mutes the internal speaker...

No, whoever wrote that was mistaken.

I think the confusion arises because the Mustang amps don't, strictly speaking, have a proper dedicated "line out" socket. They have two other sockets, designed for other things, that can be used to achieve the effect of a "line out" socket.

One is the headphone socket. Using this mutes the internal speaker(s).

The other is the fx-send socket. Using this doesn't mute the internal speaker(s).

So whether "line out mutes the internal speaker" is true, depends on which of the above options is being discussed.

Of course, neither of these is going to be at exactly the correct voltage level and impedance matching for a genuine line-out (I doubt they're even identical to each other), but they seem (on both the Mustangs and other amps) to do the job adequately.

Personally, I find that using a headphone socket as a line-out gives a rather 'thin' sound without any bite or depth, which I've always assumed is due to impedance-matching issues. I may of course be completely wrong.

Another point to remember is that the headphone socket on all the Mustang amps is stereo, whereas the Mustang 3 fx-send is mono, and the M 4 and 5 have a pair of (mono) fx-send sockets for the left and right stereo channels.


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:03 am
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scott-uk wrote:
They have two other sockets, designed for other things, that can be used to achieve the effect of a "line out" socket.

One is the headphone socket. Using this mutes the internal speaker(s).

The other is the fx-send socket. Using this doesn't mute the internal speaker(s).

So whether "line out mutes the internal speaker" is true, depends on which of the above options is being discussed.


The headphone out is the 'official' line out.

The send is a send which is not designed for, but can be used for that purpose. But to avoid confusion there is only one line out, the headphone out. And that does indeed mute the internal speaker.

Personally I would never use the heaphone/line out for a live playing situation, just because I would never want to rely on that jack.

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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:37 am
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It seems odd to have the efx loop after speaker sim. I'm assuming this was done to avoid additional D-A / A-D and keep everything the amp is doing digital. Also, keeping the conversions to a bare minimum? In digital anything it is the right thing to do and perhaps you can get some "new" sounds. But now I'm thinking that it would be a really good idea, if you are using processing in the loop, to really look at no amp sim and work with whatever speaker config you have on your Mustang. Avoiding that extra eq that will be affecting your outboard gear. But obviously if you like the sound, you like the sound and so far I haven't read anyone mention it.


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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:42 am
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Hi Adam,

I would suggest that you try going through the Cab Sim settings on the Amp menu and 'audition' them to find which works best for your specific setup. Once you find a Cab Sim that you like, you can adjust the Presets you are using to this Cab Sim and make the (Effect send) output to the PA consistent.

In regard to the distortion/possible clipping you mention in relation to the Effects send, I would suggest that you double check gain stages. Keep in mind that every effect (real or virtual), the output of your guitar, the amp model and related settings, compression, etc. all add gain to your signal. I hope this information helps. Please let us know if we can assist further.

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Post subject: Re: Quick question on Mustang III
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:09 pm
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OK - I've done a few tests plugging things into other things and have noticed something strange:

For simplicity's sake, I plugged straight into the amp. No pedals involved
Then I ran a cable from the PHONES jack, into the Line input on my Yamaha Mixer. The mixer then goes to some studio monitors and some headphones.
This performed as you'd expect, amp models sounded fine, but mutes the amp speaker.

Then I tried running the cable from the FX send to the line input of the mixer. This kept the amp speaker live, but the sound through the mixer was bad, even using the amp's built in models.
For example using the "Basic 90s Stack" preset, coming from the FX send, I get a harsh, "scratchy" (it's hard to describe but VERY different from the preset) sound. The same kind of sound I got when I used my own OD pedal.

But, if I go from FX send to mixer, then plug a lead into the PHONES jack on the amp (just a lead, not connected to anything), there's a quick pause in the sound, then it changes to how the amp model should sound....!?
Basically, the sound from FX send changes depending on whether something's plugged into PHONES.

Can anyone explain what goes on inside the amp when something's plugged into PHONES?

Cheers all,
Adam


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