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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:15 am
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I too agree. ;)


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:16 am
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Regarding increasing the volumes of the clean sounds: given a system with a fixed amount of headroom and wattage, the clean amp types will always be quieter than the distorted amp types unless the distorted amp types are attenuated to match the clean ones. In other words, if you have a clean amp that is outputting a signal at a given amplitude and a dirty amp that is outputting a signal at the same amplitude, the dirty one will be perceived as louder. Potentially much louder, depending on how clean the clean one is, and how dirty the dirty one is.

Another way to put this is that if I internally add more volume to the clean sounds they will clip / run out of headroom (under certain circumstances), and no longer be clean.

My advice is to use the Preset Volume to equate the volumes of your presets based on your guitar’s pickups and your playing style. Specifically and unfortunately in this case, reduce the Preset Volume of the high gain presets to match the volume of your cleanest setting.

If you really want to go to extremes to maximize the volume of your favorite clean setting, change the Sag to Less, and place a compressor in the post-amp effects position. Put the Threshold at 10.0 and increase the Level setting until you run out of headroom. Note that if you add effects or increase the tonestack settings you might need to readjust the Level setting.

All of this being said… I will look into the clean amp types to see if I can squeeze any more volume out without sacrificing the flexibility of the current audio path and control.

Hope this helps. Please note that I’ll read your responses, but it’s unlikely I’ll have to time to respond on this topic further. Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:42 am
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Thanks for the info Ben. And for the work on the amp. :)


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:07 pm
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Ben Rathke - Fender wrote:
Regarding increasing the volumes of the clean sounds: given a system with a fixed amount of headroom and wattage, the clean amp types will always be quieter than the distorted amp types unless the distorted amp types are attenuated to match the clean ones. In other words, if you have a clean amp that is outputting a signal at a given amplitude and a dirty amp that is outputting a signal at the same amplitude, the dirty one will be perceived as louder. Potentially much louder, depending on how clean the clean one is, and how dirty the dirty one is.

Another way to put this is that if I internally add more volume to the clean sounds they will clip / run out of headroom (under certain circumstances), and no longer be clean.

My advice is to use the Preset Volume to equate the volumes of your presets based on your guitar’s pickups and your playing style. Specifically and unfortunately in this case, reduce the Preset Volume of the high gain presets to match the volume of your cleanest setting.

If you really want to go to extremes to maximize the volume of your favorite clean setting, change the Sag to Less, and place a compressor in the post-amp effects position. Put the Threshold at 10.0 and increase the Level setting until you run out of headroom. Note that if you add effects or increase the tonestack settings you might need to readjust the Level setting.

All of this being said… I will look into the clean amp types to see if I can squeeze any more volume out without sacrificing the flexibility of the current audio path and control.

Hope this helps. Please note that I’ll read your responses, but it’s unlikely I’ll have to time to respond on this topic further. Thanks!


Thank you for chiming in on this, Ben.
However, it seems that the distorted amp models are able to force the amp to run out of headroom. If you listen carefully, you can hear it but it is much less easy to detect compared to a clean amp sound. The thing is, I've had a difficult time even trying to get my MII to clip the power amp (not that you'd really want to, mind you) as it just doesn't seem to have enough juice to do so. I understand what you're saying about the perception of distorted amps being louder than clean amps but to me, and quite a few others here it would seem, it's a pretty big chasm between the two.

The thing is, the fact that you yourself have suggested the very thing that I do on my MII. Suggesting the use a compressor in the post amp position to boost a clean amp's output, pretty much proves that there is in fact more than enough headroom in the power amp because the output of the clean amps are so low. It is through the use of the compressor that has me truly convinced that it is absolutely possible to bridge the level gap between the two types of sounds.
Thank you.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:01 pm
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the (digital) headroom is necessary to provide flexibility, i.e. adding ability to add effects and boosting the tonestack without worry that clipping will occur. If I put every clean amp on the hairy edge of clipping to maximize their volume, users would find it too easy to run into "unpleasantries" under normal use. This being said, if I didn't allow the possibility of clipping under some circumstances, the amp's output would be lower than expected/desired. It's a balance, and it's clear you'd like the balance to be tipped further in one direction. Noted :). And to clarify, I'm not talking about analog power amp headroom, I'm talking DSP headroom. Thanks and I better get back to work!


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:57 pm
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I for one am OK with the volume on the clean amps. The cleans have always been lower volume than the hi-gains on every modeling pedal I've ever owned. I don't use the high gain models anyway. You could sell me a "Mustang Surf" with only clean models and I would be ecstatic.

What I would like to do though is turn on/off the bright switch (on those models that have one) using the LCD screen on my MIII.

Also it would be great to have a volume knob on the tremolo pedals--just like my real-life tremolo pedal--because the bottom falls out on the volume when you engage the tremolo due to the fluctuations of the effect. You should be able to preset a little volume boost to offset the drop.


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:17 am
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Quote:
if you have a clean amp that is outputting a signal at a given amplitude and a dirty amp that is outputting a signal at the same amplitude, the dirty one will be perceived as louder

This prompts me to ask, as a theoretical physics-like question:

Taking the above to its logical extreme: is a square wave perceived as louder than a sine wave of the same peak amplitude (and same frequency)? And to what extent would this be influenced by the speaker's (in-)ability to perfectly reproduce the square wave?


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:31 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
if you have a clean amp that is outputting a signal at a given amplitude and a dirty amp that is outputting a signal at the same amplitude, the dirty one will be perceived as louder

This prompts me to ask, as a theoretical physics-like question:

Taking the above to its logical extreme: is a square wave perceived as louder than a sine wave of the same peak amplitude (and same frequency)? And to what extent would this be influenced by the speaker's (in-)ability to perfectly reproduce the square wave?



Short answer: Yes.

Long answer is the there are a couple of things in play. One is a square wave has many more harmonics. A true sine wave has no harmonics.

Secondly is that if both have the same peak amplitude, the square wave has much more effective power. I say "effective power" for lack of the proper term. Power (in Watts) is usually given for sine waves. A square wave has a very high "duty cycle" (the amount of time the waveform spends at or near max), while a sine wave has very small duty cycle. A figure given in Watts (RMS) is meaningful only for a sine wave.

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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:12 am
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Quote:
a square wave has many more harmonics

Yes, I was in two minds whether to phrase the question "a wave with complex harmonics" or "a square wave"

Quote:
same peak amplitude, the square wave has much more effective power

Indeed. I deliberately said same peak amplitude rather than same RMS, etc.

So perceived volume is a function of the overall power of the wave rather than its amplitude. Which leads to the further questions:

Would two different waves with the same RMS power always have the same perceived volume? (More-or-less; I suspect wave shape and ear response of different listeners also affect this a bit)

For example, is a sine wave with peak amplitude 1.4 the same perceived volume as a "complex" wave (eg square-wave-like, guitar distortion sound) with peak amplitude 1.0? (NB 1.4 is the correct multiplier (approx - it's actually square root of 2, 1.414213562...) to give these two waves equal power).

If so, that explains why the Mustang 'clean' amp models sound quieter. Let's suppose the peak non-distorting amplitude of a wave in the amp is "1.0" (in some scale, doesn't matter what). So the above complex wave is fine. However, the 'clean' wave (comparable to the sine wave) can't be given equal volume: to do that it would need an amplitude of 1.4, which exceeds the available headroom, and thus it would clip/distort and no longer be clean. In order for the wave to stay clean, it's peak amplitude needs to be dropped to 1.0, which also drops its power and thus its perceived volume.

Now obviously we don't use our Mustangs at the limit/peak of their non-distorting capacity (well, at least not all the time...) so yes, in the real world there is some headroom to increase the volume of the clean amp models. But you can see why Fender don't do that as standard: if they did, those models would stop being clean as the volume is turned up.

One could argue the decision either way: equal volume (of clean vs distorted) at low settings with clipping at high settings, versus different volume (clean lower than distorted) at low settings, in order to preserve cleanness throughout the range. Fender decided one way, some people want it the other...


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:29 am
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Wow. Thank you for this wonderful summary scott-uk!


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:41 am
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Yes, indeed. Thank you scott-uk.

I'm only going by my personal experience in using the compressor to boost a clean output and have yet to encounter any headroom problems.. Perhaps it is Because i am in fact using a compressor and it is preventing any digital overloads from occurring. I'm also boosting the level just enough to make the difference between the distorted and clean sounds more practical. Still, it would be nice not to have to use the compressor because it is changing the sound a bit even at the lowest compression settings.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:59 am
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Orcatraz, do you gig much? The reason I ask is because if I set everything where the volumes sound right for the bedroom (or in my case, computer room) and then take the amp to a gig, I have to adjust the volume levels for my high-gain presets to make them a little louder. I wonder if we're comparing apples and oranges, as the headroom seems just right to me for gigging.

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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:04 am
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Quote:
Thank you for this wonderful summary

Blush. Do I get a job at Fender now? :wink: And if only my guitar playing were good enough also to attract such comments!

Quote:
using the compressor to boost a clean output ... to make the difference between the distorted and clean sounds more practical ... would be nice not to have to use the compressor

It's been mentioned in an earlier post, but I'm curious: have you tried lowering the volume on your distorted presets to match the clean volume (rather than boosting the clean volume), and then turning up the master volume to restore the original overall volume? Would that achieve the desired effect (without needing the compressor), or am I missing something?

My two main presets are a crunchy VOX, err sorry "British 60s," and a clean Twin Reverb. They both have about the same overall volume, I can't remember exactly what I did to achieve that but I don't have any effects (other than reverb) in either preset, it's all done with the (modelled) amp controls. In fact at one point the Twin Reverb was louder, but I fixed that easily by cranking the gain on the British 60s preset :D

Admittedly this is all at 'home' rather than 'gigging' volumes.


Last edited by scott-uk on Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:19 am
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Hi All,

We would like to extend a big thank you to our own Ben Rathke as well as scott-uk for their excellent and thoughtful input here.

Cheers,

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Post subject: Re: Firmware request
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:29 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
It's been mentioned in an earlier post, but I'm curious: have you tried lowering the volume on your distorted presets to match the clean volume (rather than boosting the clean volume), and then turning up the master volume to restore the original overall volume? Would that achieve the desired effect (without needing the compressor), or am I missing something?

My two main presets are a crunchy VOX, err sorry "British 60s," and a clean Twin Reverb. They both have about the same overall volume, I can't remember exactly what I did to achieve that but I don't have any effects (other than reverb) in either preset, it's all done with the (modelled) amp controls. In fact at one point the Twin Reverb was louder, but I fixed that easily by cranking the gain on the British 60s preset :D

Admittedly this is all at 'home' rather than 'gigging' volumes.


I actually use a combination of both. I've been tending to use the '65 Deluxe rather than the Twin for my clean sounds and it definitely needs a boost from the compressor.
For me, the Twin is just not as sparkly as the Deluxes - especially the '57 but that one's actually a bit too bright. The one cool thing about the Twin is that as you turn its "Volume" up, it doesn't really get very dirty as much as it starts to sound a bit "angry", for lack of a better description, and that's kind of a cool sound too. I just haven't found a use for it... yet.

I use my amp for gigging and before I stumbled onto the post position compressor trick, I was having to crank that amp up pretty high for my clean sounds to be heard. It's a good thing that I always mic my amp these days but before, it was pretty frustrating. I don't mic it during rehearsals so if it weren't for the compressor, I'd still be frustrated.

Maybe one solution would be if Fender gave us a simple booster/brick wall limiter just for the cleans in the post position. The booster would get the level up and the limiter would keep the output within the confines of the digital headroom.

O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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