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Post subject: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switches
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:16 am
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I have put my 2 and 4 button pedals, along with a few others on a pedalboard. It was been working fine. However recently I stared hearing some steady clicking when I went into the tuner mode. So, I put in new wiring for the 2 and 4 button switches. It worked great again for a while and them something different.

I have the 2 button switch programmed for up/down. When plugged into the patch bay it will only go up, but when I am stepping on the down button? I unplug it from the bay and go direct, no problem.

I also have the send and return and amp input into the bay. Not a problem there. I have changed bay wires and still the same problem with the changed out wires for the 2 & 4 buttons. I just don't get it. I have clean the jacks with Deoxit. I have checked the continuity and they check out a .1-.2 ohms.

If I use a small connector cord in the middle with and a female to female connector it works fine. Help me before I go bald.

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:34 am
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Does the patch bay have a common connection across the ground terminals of all the jack sockets? The footswitch is sending digital data over its cable. It may not be a 'standard' signal with a ground pin and a signal pin. So common grounding, etc, may confuse it. It may not work with anything other than its own dedicated connection.


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:13 am
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Thanks for your input, scott.

There is, but I have unmounted everything and all connections are in the air so to speak right now. Having a common ground problem does sound like a possiblility.

Funny thing, I tried it after the Deoxit worked for a while and it was fine. I sprayed with eoxit Gold, took a shower and tried it out before I was gonna put it back together. Now the 2 button switch is working like a temporary switch.

I wire them in without a connection in between and it works like a champ. I know it's in the patch cords but the test out good and work fine when used with the other three connections, FX Send, FX Return or the amp input. Thee bay has 5 connections, all mounted to a metal jack plate:

2 button
4 button
Send
Return
Amp Input

Again, right now nothing is mounted to the jack plate. Again, It worked fine when I first built it, but then after about a month or so I started getting a clicking sound when I went into the tuner mode. I have a volume boost pedal in the FX loop. Turning the volume down didn't negate the clicking.

I built a snake for it and it works fine.


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:49 am
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Quote:
all connections are in the air so to speak

This gave me another idea, again thinking about it being a digital signal. It's possible that some part of the connectivity through the patch bay is acting as an antenna and introducing interference onto the signal.

Plus bear in mind it's a two-way signal between the pedal and the amp. The amp provides power to the pedal, the pedal sends signals about button-presses to the amp, and the amp in turn sends control signals to the pedal to turn the LEDs on and off, etc (ok, maybe not literally; the pedal will have its own control circuiry too, but there's still probably bi-directional data).

So there's power and two sets of data going over the same piece of wire. Doesn't surprise me that the setup is sensitive to the interconnections.

I'm actually surprised they used a 1/4" jack-plug connection for the footswitches. OK, I suppose it's ubiquitous and means all amp connections use the same type of connection (oh, except the headphones and aux-in...). But a dedicated purpose-made data cable/plugs/sockets may have been more suitable. Say, maybe even a MIDI cable/connectors - isn't this sort of thing exactly what MIDI is good at?

Hmmm, I wonder when we'll see USB over 1/4" jack-plug guitar cables? :-)


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:55 am
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scott-uk wrote:
This gave me another idea, again thinking about it being a digital signal. It's possible that some part of the connectivity through the patch bay is acting as an antenna and introducing interference onto the signal.

Plus bear in mind it's a two-way signal between the pedal and the amp. The amp provides power to the pedal, the pedal sends signals about button-presses to the amp, and the amp in turn sends control signals to the pedal to turn the LEDs on and off, etc (ok, maybe not literally; the pedal will have its own control circuiry too, but there's still probably bi-directional data).

So there's power and two sets of data going over the same piece of wire. Doesn't surprise me that the setup is sensitive to the interconnections.



Good point and that makes sense.

Maybe the snake idea isn't gonna work. It works on everything but the 2 and 4 buttons switches.

Maybe someone from Fender will chime in.


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:24 am
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The snake could be problematic - you're putting multiple different signal cables in close proximity, there's bound to be some cross-interference, even with shielded cables. That could affect the audio signal too (ie the cable from the guitar to the amp).

Even with your patch bay, I'd certainly make sure the footswitch cables have their own electrical connections, completely isolated from everything else.

Another thought - do you have the tip/sleeve wiring back to front at one end of your patch cables? Hopefully not, but worth double-checking! Or an intermittent short between the two; easily done, one barely-visible strand would be enough to cause mayhem.

Or here's another suggestion that might be worth trying. Note I haven't done this myself, so at your own risk, etc, etc.

Get some "twisted pair plus shield" cable. So like a balanced microphone cable, perhaps. At one end of it, connect a 1/4" jack plug to the twisted pair. Leave the screen/shield unconnected - and make sure it really is disconnected and not accidentally touching any metal parts of the plug, its connectors, or the wires, etc. At the other end, connect the twisted pair to the jack socket on your patch bay (matching up the tip and sleeve connections the same as at the plug end, of course!). Make sure the socket is completely isolated from the mounting board and everything else. Then connect the screen of the cable to your overall patch bay 'ground' - and make sure this 'ground' really is earthed somewhere. Then plug the footswitch into the socket.

So now you have a totally isolated signal path for the footswitch cable. And you have the overall cable shielded against interference.

It might make no difference, it might be just what you need.


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:47 pm
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Wow, you definitely know your onions. That is a lot to think over and try, it may be a while.

Okay, gonna be quite a while. I'll let you know how it comes out, but it may be a while.

Thanks a bunch scott.

If Loren wants to jump in and respond go for it, maybe this is just not gonna work, I dunno. But I'm gonna give it the good old American try.


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:53 pm
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Thanks a bunch scott. I got it worked out. Not exatly what I wanted to do, but it works, so I'm a happy camper. I had to use a different jack. I have no idea why the regular 1/4" jacks wouldn't work, but when I used 2 1/4" cords and hooked them together with a double female connector it worked fine, so I tried these and I'm good to go. I guess the jacks just weren't making a good enough connection. Here is what it looks like.

Image

Image


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Post subject: Re: Help needed - patchbay hookup for 2 and 4 button switche
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:50 pm
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Fender Staff

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:46 pm
Posts: 860
Hi jcwillow777,

I cannot comment on the internal wiring of our hardware devices as this technically voids the warranty on the product and could, in some cases be dangerous. But it looks like you have a cool pedal board. Please let us know if we can assist with anything else.

_________________
Alan Willey
Fender Technology Support Lab
TSL@Fender.com
480.596.7195


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