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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:25 am
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Chad T, Mansen - thanks for bringing this back on-topic, and for sharing your experiences.

To round this off, I have bought a Mustang IV. I'll post some more on the buying decision and initial impressions when I've had a chance to play with it some more, in case that's useful for anyone else with the same concerns as me. Suffice to say, so far all is happy.

I don't hear any 'fizz' - but then I'm not 100% certain what I'm listening for, different from expected distortion effects, background noise etc; all I know is I don't hear anything unpleasant that I don't think should be there. Despite assertions that it's all clearly documented, I'm afraid I can't find anything on the net that clearly states specific amp settings that will reproduce (ie audibly emphasise) the issue if it exists on a particular amp, to make it easier for me to confirm if mine has it. Nor a valid with/without fizz audio comparison to help demonstrate the defect (the only audio comparison I can find used totally different recording methods for the two samples, so they sound substantially different from each other anyway). If either or both of the above do exist, then I would genuinely appreciate if anyone can kindly provide a direct pointer to the relevant audio/video/forum-post, as my searches have failed to find it.

On the other hand, if I can't hear a problem, then why should I go looking for it? :D


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:03 am
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Scott,

The "FIZZ" is only audible after a medium/long sustaining note from a clean amp setting. And as minute as it is I'm sure you will continue to enjoy the amp, features, and extras as much as the rest of us.

Best Wishes Across the Pond,


Chad T


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:26 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Chad T, Mansen - thanks for bringing this back on-topic, and for sharing your experiences.

To round this off, I have bought a Mustang IV. I'll post some more on the buying decision and initial impressions when I've had a chance to play with it some more, in case that's useful for anyone else with the same concerns as me. Suffice to say, so far all is happy.

I don't hear any 'fizz' - but then I'm not 100% certain what I'm listening for, different from expected distortion effects, background noise etc; all I know is I don't hear anything unpleasant that I don't think should be there. Despite assertions that it's all clearly documented, I'm afraid I can't find anything on the net that clearly states specific amp settings that will reproduce (ie audibly emphasise) the issue if it exists on a particular amp, to make it easier for me to confirm if mine has it. Nor a valid with/without fizz audio comparison to help demonstrate the defect (the only audio comparison I can find used totally different recording methods for the two samples, so they sound substantially different from each other anyway). If either or both of the above do exist, then I would genuinely appreciate if anyone can kindly provide a direct pointer to the relevant audio/video/forum-post, as my searches have failed to find it.

On the other hand, if I can't hear a problem, then why should I go looking for it? :D


If you're not hearing anything that bothers you with the amp then I suggest that you don't worry about it.

The amps that had the very real problem with fizz would do so on a clean amp setting with no effects turned on. For example, a twin reverb with low gain at reasonable volume. If you can get a clean sound for the duration of the note at ANY setting then I'd say you're fizz free - for now. I say for now, because there's every reason to believe that it can change with time.

As for
Quote:
Nor a valid with/without fizz audio comparison to help demonstrate the defect (the only audio comparison I can find used totally different recording methods for the two samples


That's a bit like saying to a guy with a car that's backfiring, "I need to hear the same model car not backfiring so I know how it's supposed to sound." It's enough to know that cars aren't supposed to backfire and clean amps aren't supposed to have an annoying phasor/flanger effect going on. The clips that I've heard on the web show a very obvious problem with the sound. I get that if you don't know what a car sounds like then you might not know that it's not supposed to backfire. And if you don't know what a clean electric guitar sounds like then you may not understand what's wrong with the fizzers. But if you go out and listen to other cars, you'll quickly come to the conclussion that, "yea, it's not good when cars make that noise." And you can do the same thing with amps. We're not talking about something subtle.

I'll also add a bit of history. The clips that I've heard and re-posted, first showed up right here, on the Fender forum. The people who bought their new amp were trying to bring the problem to the attention of Fender. They posted their "issue" and sought help. But they didn't get any help. They didn't even get a response! And keep in mind that Fender is pretty good with helping novice users who are having problems with settings and such on their amps. Some of the history of this can still be read, some cannot because Fender deleted much of it from the forum. At one point the frustration of customers who had the fizz was so great that almost every thread in the forum's first page was about fizz. Obviously Fender had to do something. The right thing to do would be to address the problem and respond to someone who was complaining about fizz. Maybe ask the person about the settings they were using. It's not like these people were unreasonable- they just wanted their amp to have a clean setting that worked. Fender responded by purging threads and putting out a single statement saying in effect: it is what it is. Which was a sad day for a lot of us old timers.

Hopefully you'll never have to worry about fizz with you amp. Hopefully you'll just enjoy it. I have a mustang I, which I like a lot. It's easily the best $100 that I've spent on gear, but I wouldn't feel that way if it fizzed.

John


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:01 am
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strings10927 wrote:
I could not translate the above text into amp settings, maybe you can provide some clarification on how I can do that? :roll:

The fizz effect can be heard clearly at http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz, from the first message posted in the existing fizz thread. When present, it is only audible through the speaker, and is not present in the headphone or usb out circuits.

My III did not fizz on receipt but began to fizz about 45 days after purchase and progressed to the point heard in the audio clip above. Fender would not replace on warranty, and I finally persuaded the vendor to accept a return, at a loss.

On my amp, this sound artifact was easily reproduced using the Fender Twin amp, pre-gain of 2, post-gain at 7 and master volume at a comfortable home listening level with all effects off and no effects placed in the pre or post loop. It was also audible on virtually any clean setting, that is, any amp model with a low pre-gain and room-level volume.

This has been reported in this forum on many occasions by posters affected by fizz. Fender told both me and my local dealer that this is an inherent characteristic of the amp, however it has also been reported by multiple posters that for some it develops over time and that some have it and some don't. Fender will not (or did not at the time I had mine) replace a fizzing amp with a non-fizzing amp of the same model, and won't (or didn't) accept them for repair. Their official posted statement is that they acknowledge some people are affected but that they consider it within tolerance Some people were offered a swap for a different amp, e.g. a Champ or a downgrade to a I or II on which fizz was fixed.

Fender's official statement acknowledging fizz can be found at viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203


If Fender has since fixed it, either with a patch or with a new production run, I haven't heard about it.


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 am
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Quote:
For example, a twin reverb with low gain at reasonable volume

Thanks, that's helpful.
Quote:
a bit like saying to a guy with a car that's backfiring, "I need to hear the same model car not backfiring so I know how it's supposed to sound."

No, that's not what I meant, but let's not worry about it because...
Quote:
The fizz effect can be heard clearly at http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz

Thanks, that's perfect - in the sense that it's obvious to me now from that audio what defect/artifact people mean by 'fizz'
Quote:
easily reproduced using the Fender Twin amp, pre-gain of 2, post-gain at 7 and master volume at a comfortable home listening level with all effects off and no effects placed in the pre or post loop. It was also audible on virtually any clean setting, that is, any amp model with a low pre-gain and room-level volume

And thank you for that too. I may do a few more tests on my amp to check for fizz, but I think I'm going to concentrate on just using it! I didn't actually mean to start another fizz debate; I'll leave others to continue it if they want. As for me I'll follow Mr Zappa's advice and "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar" :D


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:17 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
The fizz effect can be heard clearly at http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz

Thanks, that's perfect - in the sense that it's obvious to me now from that audio what defect/artifact people mean by 'fizz'

Keep in mind, that clip was posted 12 months ago, there have been at least 3 firmware updates since it was posted

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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:31 am
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strings10927 wrote:
scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
The fizz effect can be heard clearly at http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz

Thanks, that's perfect - in the sense that it's obvious to me now from that audio what defect/artifact people mean by 'fizz'

Keep in mind, that clip was posted 12 months ago, there have been at least 3 firmware updates since it was posted

I installed all but the latest before returning the amp and none of them fixed the fizz or were reported by Fender to have fixed the fizz. I'm guessing that if they think they've fixed it, they would say so.


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:53 pm
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Quote:
Thanks, that's perfect - in the sense that it's obvious to me now from that audio what defect/artifact people mean by 'fizz'


Exactly, the "fizz" is obvious.


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:12 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
strings10927 wrote:
Keep in mind, that clip was posted 12 months ago, there have been at least 3 firmware updates since it was posted

I installed all but the latest before returning the amp and none of them fixed the fizz or were reported by Fender to have fixed the fizz. I'm guessing that if they think they've fixed it, they would say so.


I installed Firmware v. 1.10 and the latest Fuse and the fizz is still there. I'm convinced the fault lies in the power amp section, and no software is going to fix it.

As I've mentioned before, I tried to get my amp repaired or exchanged under warranty, and the authorized Fender repair center returned my amp to me a week later saying that Fender told them there was nothing that could be done about it.

Right now I'm living with it since it isn't a problem at performance levels, and it's easier to take to gigs than my tube amp with pedals.


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Post subject: Re: Disillusioned before purchase - what does the panel thin
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:16 pm
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Quote:
I'm convinced the fault lies in the power amp section, and no software is going to fix it.


That makes the most sense to me too.


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