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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:50 pm
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"Are the Delay and Reverb in "Pre" or "Post" mode. "
They are in post mode, i.e. past the preamp. I say that but its clear that the input > preamp > post effects > power amp thing hasn't been modeled from the real world or the amp volume thing would work.
Ideally, to be musically useful IMO, the volume should act like an input volume as it does in virtually every pedal board that has a volume pedal.
I just put a delay in the effects loop and that works fine. That said I really liked the idea of having just two cords with control information coming thru them for the switches and exp-1 and a super short actual audio cable going from the wireless receiver directly into the amp input.
Now if I want the volume pedal to act like it does in most setups I need to supply delay/reverb in the effects loop and run long $@! audio cables for send and return to the front of the stage.
I can get by with a lot fewer stomp boxes but jeez.... I was really looking forward to no pedal board. I suppose for a lot of gigs I wouldn't bother.
I have a yamaha Magic Stomp II and a Boss RT20 rotary speaker simulator I might put in the effects loop now.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:19 am
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BTW the effects loop is post everything.
The Mustang III's reverb and delay tails are effected by anything you put in there.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:49 am
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rmrossa wrote:
"Are the Delay and Reverb in "Pre" or "Post" mode. "
They are in post mode, i.e. past the preamp. I say that but its clear that the input > preamp > post effects > power amp thing hasn't been modeled from the real world or the amp volume thing would work.
Ideally, to be musically useful IMO, the volume should act like an input volume as it does in virtually every pedal board that has a volume pedal.
I just put a delay in the effects loop and that works fine. That said I really liked the idea of having just two cords with control information coming thru them for the switches and exp-1 and a super short actual audio cable going from the wireless receiver directly into the amp input.
Now if I want the volume pedal to act like it does in most setups I need to supply delay/reverb in the effects loop and run long $@! audio cables for send and return to the front of the stage.
I can get by with a lot fewer stomp boxes but jeez.... I was really looking forward to no pedal board. I suppose for a lot of gigs I wouldn't bother.
I have a yamaha Magic Stomp II and a Boss RT20 rotary speaker simulator I might put in the effects loop now.



Ok, that's just weird. If the expression pedal is set to "expression" mode not "volume" mode and is assigned to control the "Amp Volume" it should work. Maybe Fender hasn't quite properly implemented this in the amps. Have you tried running Fuse and seeing if in fact the EXP-1 is controlling the amp volume when you move the pedal?

Also, in the interests of sussing out the Mustang amps' actual signal chain, in Fuse, call up the delay effect in the post position, crank up the feedback a fair amount, play a short staccato strum your guitar so you can hear the echoes and quickly turn down the Amp Volume in Fuse. See if that cuts off the delay. I have a bad feeling about this. I'm thinking that what they're referring to as "Amp Volume" on the Floor has no equivalent parameter in the Mustang amps and that you're actually changing the "Preset Volume" which would definitely cut off the reverb and delay. If this is true, you've dropped the ball here, Fender. Let's hope that it can be fixed in a future Firmware update. After all, they were able to give us a USB Volume parameter in the last one.

Seeing as you want it pre the gain stage anyway, can you set it to control the Gain parameter as Ben Rathke suggested?

Once again I'm feeling spoiled by my GT-8's signal routing flexibility... too bad it doesn't sound as good as the Mustangs.

True that a lot of people use volume pedals in front of their amps but I actually like it when my volume pedal doesn't change the amount of gain I'm using. I like being able to maintain the amount of overdrive I'm using while I lower the amp's volume with a volume pedal. Mind you this only works on some amps. Tube amps (in my experience) typically want to see a buffered signal after the volume pedal.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:39 am
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Ouch, my bad. I can see now that part of my earlier post was misleading/wrong. By 'Amp Volume', I meant virtual power amp master volume, which is labeled MSTR (not VOL) on the Mustang III-V LCD, and MASTER VOLUME in FUSE. Note that not all amp models have this parameter. This should also be listed in the FUSE Expression Pedal Settings dialog, but for some reason isn't listed currently. We'll look into this asap. In the meantime, GAIN can be used as suggested.

rmrossa - I understand your frustration and appreciate your suggestion. To be clear, this workplace is crawling with musicians, each with their own individual opinions about every little detail about everything we do. We listen to all and create products to appease as many as possible within the constraints of product development. Sorry we're not hitting the mark for you with the EXP-1. I'll look into your suggestion.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:44 am
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Orcatraz wrote:

Ok, that's just weird. If the expression pedal is set to "expression" mode not "volume" mode and is assigned to control the "Amp Volume" it should work. Maybe Fender hasn't quite properly implemented this in the amps. Have you tried running Fuse and seeing if in fact the EXP-1 is controlling the amp volume when you move the pedal?

Yep. The amp volume knob goes up and down with the expression pedal.

Orcatraz wrote:
Also, in the interests of sussing out the Mustang amps' actual signal chain, in Fuse, call up the delay effect in the post position, crank up the feedback a fair amount, play a short staccato strum your guitar so you can hear the echoes and quickly turn down the Amp Volume in Fuse. See if that cuts off the delay. I have a bad feeling about this.

Well I didn't grab the mouse but using the pedal the knob on the amp image moved and the delay was cut.
Orcatraz wrote:
"Amp Volume" on the Floor


I want to reiterate that I am doing this with a Mustang III
Orcatraz wrote:
Seeing as you want it pre the gain stage anyway, can you set it to control the Gain parameter as Ben Rathke suggested?


I set it to control the gain on an overdrive. It was cool. I can see using it.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:47 am
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Ben Rathke - Fender wrote:
Ouch, my bad. I can see now that part of my earlier post was misleading/wrong. By 'Amp Volume', I meant virtual power amp master volume, which is labeled MSTR (not VOL) on the Mustang III-V LCD, and MASTER VOLUME in FUSE. Note that not all amp models have this parameter. This should also be listed in the FUSE Expression Pedal Settings dialog, but for some reason isn't listed currently. We'll look into this asap. In the meantime, GAIN can be used as suggested.

rmrossa - I understand your frustration and appreciate your suggestion. To be clear, this workplace is crawling with musicians, each with their own individual opinions about every little detail about everything we do. We listen to all and create products to appease as many as possible within the constraints of product development. Sorry we're not hitting the mark for you with the EXP-1. I'll look into your suggestion.

Thanks
Sorry for my emotional reaction. I was prepared for emulated sonic nirvana.
I have never ever liked any other emulator and I have been using a TRRI for over a decade.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:26 am
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Ben Rathke - Fender wrote:
Ouch, my bad. I can see now that part of my earlier post was misleading/wrong. By 'Amp Volume', I meant virtual power amp master volume, which is labeled MSTR (not VOL) on the Mustang III-V LCD, and MASTER VOLUME in FUSE. Note that not all amp models have this parameter. This should also be listed in the FUSE Expression Pedal Settings dialog, but for some reason isn't listed currently. We'll look into this asap. In the meantime, GAIN can be used as suggested.


Mr. Rathke, in my opinion every amp model should be given its own "Virtual Master Volume". It should be Pre effects but Post the pre-existing Virtual Master Volume included in some amp models. It should be completely independent of the Preset Volume and controllable by the EXP-1. I know that this adds a level of complexity but I think it's the only way that the EXP-1 can be implemented more fully. You'd probably have to give it a more self-explanatory name like "Model Output Level" or "Amp Output Level". Thank you.

O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:55 am
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rmrossa wrote:
Orcatraz wrote:
"Amp Volume" on the Floor


I want to reiterate that I am doing this with a Mustang III

I realized that. I was just trying to be clear.

Orcatraz wrote:
Seeing as you want it pre the gain stage anyway, can you set it to control the Gain parameter as Ben Rathke suggested?


Quote:
I set it to control the gain on an overdrive. It was cool. I can see using it.


Is it not assignable to the amp model's gain?

O.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:27 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
Is it not assignable to the amp model's gain?

O.

I'm almost certain it is I just didn't try that.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:41 pm
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rmrossa wrote:
I have a Mustang III and the EXP-1 works the same way on that.
Honestly I am sorry I bought it.
The idea that the volume would cut off the delays and reverbs and be a master volume obviously came to the mind of a non-musician.
The "fix" of having it control the "the VOL parameter of the AMP model" means it can't be used for any other parameter making the volume mode of the EXP-1 musically useless for actual musicians.
I wonder what the return policy is at the place I bought it. For me it is next to useless. I might as well resurrect my pedal board, which I had sincerely hoped to retire.
I am guessing this could be fixed in software.
A software update, if I am correct, could make the EXP-1 useful instead of a waste of money.
If someone somewhere is in love with the current configuration great. Put in the Fuse software the option of Volume mode controlling the Main volume OR the Amp volume. If you want to save virtually every musician an extra click make the Amp volume the default.
I LOVE the Mustang amp. So much of it has been so well thought out. I am surprised by this oversight. It took me all of a minute to have my WTF moment. Surely you bounced this decision off of some actual musician somewhere.
Please look into a software update for this. I don't believe for a moment it can't be done.
If the answer is no tell me soon so I can return this basically useless pedal.


Fender Guys,

I am with rmrossa on this one. He pretty well hit the nail on the head. As it currently stands, the volume pedal is useless as a volume pedal for me.

One other complaint I have about the Mustang Floor, is the Wah. It has potential to sound good, but the heel position does not go low enough in frequency. I could not find any adjustments to it, nor a place where various "wah" pedal types can be chosen. Am I missing something? If not, this wah pedal is essentially useless to me also.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:29 am
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Hi Poynt99 -

The volume control placement issues were addressed in Mustang Floor firmware v1.3 and Mustang 1-5 v1.10. Double-check that your device is up to date.

Regarding the Wah effect, you have probably noticed that the Wah effect's "Heel" control sets the low frequency. If not, make sure it is set to full CCW, 1.0, to get the lowest frequency when the pedal is set to the heel position. Also, double-check that the pedal is setup to control the Wah's FREQ control and that moving the pedal to full heel results in a FREQ setting = 1.0. If not, you'll need to calibrate your pedal. There are a number of ways to do this, here is how I do it:

1. Set your pedal manually (i.e. with your hands) to the full or nearly full toe position
2. Turn on power while holding the UTIL button
3. Move your pedal manually to the full or nearly full heel position
4. Switch to the next preset (this concludes the calibration process)

FWIW, when I perform step 3, I purposely don't move the pedal to full heel so that I get more "sensitivity" in the toe.

Note that on the Mustang Floor you'll need to calibrate your EXP-1 (if you have one) at the same time as the Floor pedal (i.e. perform the steps 1 and 3 for both pedals before step 4)

Hope this helps!


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:17 pm
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Thank you Ben for your response. It's much appreciated!

I'll install the update (still stock from the box) and check out the changes, and also look to see if the pedal is calibrated correctly.

I'll report back my findings.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:51 pm
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Ben Rathke - Fender wrote:
The volume control placement issues were addressed in Mustang Floor firmware v1.3 and Mustang 1-5 v1.10. Double-check that your device is up to date.


I confirm, the pedal now acts as it should after the 1.10 update. It's like day and night.


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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:53 am
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Hi bigdee,

Thanks for letting us know. I am glad to hear that all is well now. And a big thank you to Ben Rathke for his valuable input here. Please let us know if we can assist further.

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Post subject: Re: Volume pedal cuts delay and reverb tails? Mustang Floor
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:24 pm
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OK Ben.

Thanks for the tips on the pedal and how to calibrate it. That seemed to have done the trick. I did notice that you have to be careful with room light and/or sunlight shinning on the pedal while doing the calibration, it is quite sensitive to this.

The Volume pedal position issue is better now after the firmware update, but it is still not right. I was expecting to be able to assign the position of the volume pedal in the chain, or at least see that it was placed at the very FRONT of the chain. Instead, the Fender guys placed it AFTER the AMPLIFIER. That is fine IF THIS IS ASSIGNABLE, but as it does not appear to be assignable, by default the volume pedal should be placed at the very front of the chain, just like in real life. (Note:caps are for emphasis, not yelling).

Have I missed something?

:?


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