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Post subject: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Ableton!
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:28 pm
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Hello!

I plugged the outputs of a Zoom G9.2tt into the effects return loop of the Mustang V. Sounds great via headphones! However, when attempting to record via USB in Ableton, with the master volume at 5, no sound comes through the USB cable. Is it possible to record this way on the Mustang V? If so, ...how? :shock:

FYI, I pulled the guitar out of the Zoom, plugged it into the V direct and, of course, got sound.

Thank you for you help!!!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:41 am
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Also, when I que up the Mustang V and Ableton, there's no sound through any other applications like media player, real player.

The sound card is onboard AMD/VIA HD Audio with the Mustang V selected in the record panel, both playback and record set to 41kz.

I've done the "experimenting" within the ASIO4ALL panel, the Fender ASIO panel.

But still, 1. No sound via USB via the effects return as the primary input? And 2., If you que up Ableton, it disables all other sound?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:37 pm
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That's because the Mustang's USB port operates with your computer through an ASIO driver, which takes over control of the sound card. The operating system can no longer interface with the sound chip while the ASIO driver has control, so until you turn off Ableton, you won't hear any other programs' sounds.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
I plugged the outputs of a Zoom G9.2tt into the effects return loop of the Mustang V. Sounds great via headphones! However, when attempting to record via USB in Ableton, with the master volume at 5, no sound comes through the USB cable. Is it possible to record this way on the Mustang V? If so, ...how?


That depends on a few things. Does the Zoom G9 have a headphone port? Were you using that headphone port? We know that the USB port comes before the power-amp stage for the speaker driver. Do we know of the USB out comes before or after the FX loop in the signal chain? This is important, since if it comes BEFORE the FX loop, you won't get any sound through the USB if your guitar is hooked up directly to the Zoom/FX Return.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:57 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
That's because the Mustang's USB port operates with your computer through an ASIO driver, which takes over control of the sound card. The operating system can no longer interface with the sound chip while the ASIO driver has control, so until you turn off Ableton, you won't hear any other programs' sounds.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
I plugged the outputs of a Zoom G9.2tt into the effects return loop of the Mustang V. Sounds great via headphones! However, when attempting to record via USB in Ableton, with the master volume at 5, no sound comes through the USB cable. Is it possible to record this way on the Mustang V? If so, ...how?


That depends on a few things. Does the Zoom G9 have a headphone port? Were you using that headphone port? We know that the USB port comes before the power-amp stage for the speaker driver. Do we know of the USB out comes before or after the FX loop in the signal chain? This is important, since if it comes BEFORE the FX loop, you won't get any sound through the USB if your guitar is hooked up directly to the Zoom/FX Return.


Thanks for your reply! Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, been busy!

I'm gonna record via the headphone/line output into a TASCM USB interface so I have total control over the sound experience instead of using the V USB/Ableton nightmare.

I discovered the best way to run this rig is via a Electro Harminix Hum Debugger, a Morley A/B-Y switch with guitar in-put into both the Zoom and the V head, the effects return from the Zoom into the V head, and then an input into the front of the amp with the amp send from the V effects out to the Zoom effects loop, the zoom versatile enough to allow me to put the amp noise wherever I want it!

The power amp is before the V DSP so it won't play via USB, and input of the V effects loop is after the amp so you can't combine V DSP with an effects DSP, but you can run them simultaneously through the headphone/line or cabinet.

Of course, the cabinet can be microphoned.

okay. I got it, thank you!

...what was thought to be a $300.00 head for recording turned out to be...$1,044.00 for enough equipment to record via the $300.00 head, $744.00 over budget, plus the cab will be $299.00 more when I get around to buying it. But, I got as much of a guitar rig as a recording guitarist could ever ask for as it sits so...whew.

Thanks for your reply!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:24 pm
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Hey Guys,

The USB output is taken before the FX loop. That's why any signal going through the loop won't be available to output through USB. In fact, the FX loop is the last thing in line before the power amp, which is, of course, last in the chain before the speaker.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:28 pm
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Ok, so it's official. The Fender amp model is thus:

INPUT -> DSP (pedal -> amp model -> EQ -> rack -> cab) -> USB out -> FX Loop -> Power Amp -> Speaker Out

I'm gonna have to write this down. This helps me sell these things at the local music store...even though I don't work for them.

Hey Fender, wanna give me a job demoing these things at music stores? LOL I've learned TONS about 'em!

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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:22 pm
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FFXIhealer wrote:
Ok, so it's official. The Fender amp model is thus:

INPUT -> DSP (pedal -> amp model -> EQ -> rack -> cab) -> USB out -> FX Loop -> Power Amp -> Speaker Out

I'm gonna have to write this down. This helps me sell these things at the local music store...even though I don't work for them.

Hey Fender, wanna give me a job demoing these things at music stores? LOL I've learned TONS about 'em!


What are the official specs for the types of cables and cable lengths that can be used with *all* of the cable holes on the V head???

I've played via the guitar>Behringer NR300>Zoom>V head effects loop in> with George Lynch guitar and patch cables, a hosa stereo 1/8" to 1/4" headphone line out on the V head>TASCAM 1/4" guitar in and got perfect sound.

I played via the guitar> Behringer NR300>Zoom>V head input to the TASCAM via the headphone cable and got perfect sound this way too, yipee!

What I need to know now is how to stitch the whole thing together. I want to use the Morley ab-y switch first with the A/B signals > dual input/output of the Behringer NR 300 noise reducer, it has one input/output for the effects loop, one input/output for the guitar (sweet, 25 bucks) -- the A signal going to the Zoom>V head effects in, the B signal to the V head guitar input. Then, I need to know the best way to ab-y the output not using a cab, using just the head and zoom for recording via the TASCAM USB interface to a PC. Is the total output of the A/B-Y signal coming through the V headphone jack or both the jack and the effects look, or should I use just the effects loop out to a di-box into an xlr input...or the guitar input on the TASCAM?

Oh, yeah, I've got a Behringer Di-box with a L/R 1/4" stereo input to a single stereo XLR output. ...should one or all the signals go through that? Also, this particular di-box can do a mono, parallel effects loop instead of stereo input. Here's the di-box. http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DI400P


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:26 am
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Whoah, take a deep breath dude. Slow down a bit. :lol: Let's see what I can make of all this.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
Oh, yeah, I've got a Behringer Di-box with a L/R 1/4" stereo input to a single stereo XLR output. ...should one or all the signals go through that? Also, this particular di-box can do a mono, parallel effects loop instead of stereo input. Here's the di-box. http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DI400P


That Behringer Ultra-DI has one input and two outputs, so you can have the output next to the input sent to your amp, while the balanced XLR output goes to a mixing board (or PC/DI input). Sounds to me like this device was meant to go in your FX loop, since they normally occur right before the power-amp section. The balanced output would go directly into your PA guy's mixing board while the parallel return would go to the amp's FX RETURN jack which would then power your speaker cabinet for your live performance or for monitoring purposes.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
What I need to know now is how to stitch the whole thing together. I want to use the Morley ab-y switch first with the A/B signals > dual input/output of the Behringer NR 300 noise reducer, it has one input/output for the effects loop, one input/output for the guitar (sweet, 25 bucks) -- the A signal going to the Zoom>V head effects in, the B signal to the V head guitar input. Then, I need to know the best way to ab-y the output not using a cab, using just the head and zoom for recording via the TASCAM USB interface to a PC. Is the total output of the A/B-Y signal coming through the V headphone jack or both the jack and the effects look, or should I use just the effects loop out to a di-box into an xlr input...or the guitar input on the TASCAM?


Since the manual for the Mustang amp does not specify, I must assume that the FX loop is either on or off. Either something's plugged in and it's being used, or something's not and it's bypassed.

The Noise Supressor works with the active loop in order to maximize the noise cut and minimize guitar sound cutout. It was never designed to work with two completely separate inputs/outputs. So you'll only be able to put it in front of your AB-Y switch. Have path A run to your NS guitar input jack, then your SEND to the ZOOM input, then Zoom output to NS RETURN, then NS Output to the M5's FX RETURN jack to complete your A loop. For loop B, just run to the M5 input like you said.

How you set up your DI signal paths is completely dependant on what you're trying to do. As of right now, having your input through path A set up like this completely bypasses the Mustang 5's amp modelling and EQ section. The only thing the amp is doing is using the Master Volume control to take the FX Return signal and boost it for the speakers. You're getting no tone from the Amp. It's all comming from your ZOOM. In this case, your USB out won't work, only your headphone jack and speaker outs (both controlled by the Master Volume knob). So at this point, if all you're doing is recording and don't want to use a speaker cab sound, you don't even need the M5 amp at all. Instead of going into the FX RETURN jack, have that line run to your TASCAM guitar input so that it'll put that signal through USB DI into your computer for recording. Assuming you can use your PC speakers for monitoring, that fits what you want. The whole point of using the Mustang V's power amp is to push a speaker cab. If you're not going to do that, then why use the cab?

Let me see if I can draw you a picture of what you seem to be asking me.
Image

DSP = Digital Signal Processor
PA = Power Amplifier
NS = Noise Supressor
DI = Digital Interface

This is what I think you're asking to do. The TASCAM would come after the Behringer DI box if you used that.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:15 am
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FFXIhealer wrote:
Whoah, take a deep breath dude. Slow down a bit. :lol: Let's see what I can make of all this.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
Oh, yeah, I've got a Behringer Di-box with a L/R 1/4" stereo input to a single stereo XLR output. ...should one or all the signals go through that? Also, this particular di-box can do a mono, parallel effects loop instead of stereo input. Here's the di-box. http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DI400P


That Behringer Ultra-DI has one input and two outputs, so you can have the output next to the input sent to your amp, while the balanced XLR output goes to a mixing board (or PC/DI input). Sounds to me like this device was meant to go in your FX loop, since they normally occur right before the power-amp section. The balanced output would go directly into your PA guy's mixing board while the parallel return would go to the amp's FX RETURN jack which would then power your speaker cabinet for your live performance or for monitoring purposes.

RCB-CA-USA wrote:
What I need to know now is how to stitch the whole thing together. I want to use the Morley ab-y switch first with the A/B signals > dual input/output of the Behringer NR 300 noise reducer, it has one input/output for the effects loop, one input/output for the guitar (sweet, 25 bucks) -- the A signal going to the Zoom>V head effects in, the B signal to the V head guitar input. Then, I need to know the best way to ab-y the output not using a cab, using just the head and zoom for recording via the TASCAM USB interface to a PC. Is the total output of the A/B-Y signal coming through the V headphone jack or both the jack and the effects look, or should I use just the effects loop out to a di-box into an xlr input...or the guitar input on the TASCAM?


Since the manual for the Mustang amp does not specify, I must assume that the FX loop is either on or off. Either something's plugged in and it's being used, or something's not and it's bypassed.

The Noise Supressor works with the active loop in order to maximize the noise cut and minimize guitar sound cutout. It was never designed to work with two completely separate inputs/outputs. So you'll only be able to put it in front of your AB-Y switch. Have path A run to your NS guitar input jack, then your SEND to the ZOOM input, then Zoom output to NS RETURN, then NS Output to the M5's FX RETURN jack to complete your A loop. For loop B, just run to the M5 input like you said.

How you set up your DI signal paths is completely dependant on what you're trying to do. As of right now, having your input through path A set up like this completely bypasses the Mustang 5's amp modelling and EQ section. The only thing the amp is doing is using the Master Volume control to take the FX Return signal and boost it for the speakers. You're getting no tone from the Amp. It's all comming from your ZOOM. In this case, your USB out won't work, only your headphone jack and speaker outs (both controlled by the Master Volume knob). So at this point, if all you're doing is recording and don't want to use a speaker cab sound, you don't even need the M5 amp at all. Instead of going into the FX RETURN jack, have that line run to your TASCAM guitar input so that it'll put that signal through USB DI into your computer for recording. Assuming you can use your PC speakers for monitoring, that fits what you want. The whole point of using the Mustang V's power amp is to push a speaker cab. If you're not going to do that, then why use the cab?

Let me see if I can draw you a picture of what you seem to be asking me.
Image

DSP = Digital Signal Processor
PA = Power Amplifier
NS = Noise Supressor
DI = Digital Interface

This is what I think you're asking to do. The TASCAM would come after the Behringer DI box if you used that.


How's about this:

Guitar>Behringer NR300>Morley AB-Y>:

A>Zoom input>Zoom stereo output>Mustang V stereo effects loop in

B>Mustang V guitar input

Output:

Mustang V stereo effects loop out>Di-box 1/4", unbalanced stereo in (the instructions state it can be used this way)> balanced XLR stereo out>TASCAM in

and, or Mustang V headphone stereo 1/8" out>TASCAM 1/4" stereo in?

A whole nother option...:

Guitar>Mustang V guitar input>Mustang V right mono signal from the effects loop out>Zoom effects loop in, use as pre-amp modeling option in preamp section of zoom (you can move the effect loop around on the zoom)>zoom stereo out>di-box>xlr>tascam.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:04 pm
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...okay. If you plug the Zoom G9.2tt into the Mustang V effects loop in, you can't use the Mustang V guitar input on the front of the Mustang at the same time, correct?

So, I did this: Guitar>Behringer NR300 Input>Behringer NR300 *Send*>Morley AB-Y input (send produces cleanest, loudest signal):

Morley A (out)>Mustang V guitar input

Morley B (out)>Zoom G9.2tt input>Zoom 1/4" stereo headphones out>Mustang V 1/8" stereo Aux in

Output: Mustang V 1/8" in stereo headphone out>TASCAM 1/4" stereo input>Alesis monitors + Sony Headphones -- no cab.

With this configuration, I get full use of all the features of quiet V head (2 & 4 button foot switches, dsp/preamp/speaker-compensation as well as the Zoom independently or simultaneously). Done. The di-box is not necessary.

FYI, on the Behringer NR 300, there still is the option to add another output source from the output above the send!

Finally, I can do some clean recordings with the V and the Zoom!

Thanks for all of your help!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang V effects loop return, Zoom G9.2tt, USB, ...Able
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:32 pm
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The way the Behringer NS300 is set up is the same way that my BOSS NS-2 Noise Supressor is set up. It has a guitar input, Send, Return, and Output. The way I route my signal is thus:

Guitar -> NS Input -> NS SEND -> Mustang V INPUT -> M5 FX SEND -> NS RETURN -> NS OUTPUT -> M5 FX RETURN -> M5 Speaker Outs -> V412 Cabinet.

The Send/Return loop on the NS allows the pedal to filter between noise comming from your effects/amp and the actual guitar signal comming in through the INPUT jack so that the final OUTPUT only contains the guitar sound. It doesn't filter two different lines. It uses the two lines as a double-pass filter.

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