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Post subject: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:57 pm
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Hi,

is there any information available on how the different parameters available via Fuse work, how they affect the resulting sound?
This would be very useful for amp parameters like sag or bias, but also for many of the effect parameters which are not all self-explanatory.

Thanks for any advice!


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:06 pm
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I'd second this, although I do already know what BIAS is. Bias refers to the voltage level on the power tube in a valve-driven amplifier. Some people like to push their tubes just a bit hotter and it changes the output tone of the amp. Some run the tubes a little bit cooler. Since the Mustang line emulates valve-driven amps, they included this handy tweaking knob to emulate this instead of locking a user into a matched Bias setting.

I still don't know what SAG is.

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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:39 pm
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Definitions of SAG in tube amps can be found online readily enough, but a REAL manual from Fender that explains these 'advanced' features in the context of their own amps, rather than a cheap and feeble 'quick start' guide, would save a lot of trouble.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:23 am
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I was a bit lost at first as well. Now, I just try different settings and let my ears do the work of deciding if the tone is what I want or not. When I'm really trying to dial-in a certain sound, like the '57 RI Tweed Twin, I write down notes with all details like a NASCAR crew-chief. I've also had good results by playing with the cab settings to get the sound I want.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:09 am
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slowride65 wrote:
I was a bit lost at first as well. Now, I just try different settings and let my ears do the work of deciding if the tone is what I want or not. When I'm really trying to dial-in a certain sound, like the '57 RI Tweed Twin, I write down notes with all details like a NASCAR crew-chief. I've also had good results by playing with the cab settings to get the sound I want.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Ultimately, it's what your ears hear that matters.
If you turn the Sag and Bias knobs and don't hear a difference in the sound, it won't matter if Fender had described what those knobs do. Just leave them in their default positions and don't use them. You can learn so much more by experimenting and paying full attention to exactly what's changing in the sound than just by reading what the manual says. I believe that the manufacturer's descriptions in the manual can also cause a placebo effect in how you think you hear and use those controls... especially ones as subtle as the Bias control.

I say, trust your ears and explore.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:46 am
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Orcatraz

Noodling around as a way to learn how an amp works and listening to the outcomes is a great thing to do, especially if someone is savvy enough to keep notes so that they can reproduce what they did.

But I still maintain that a basic written explanation by a manufacturer of how the many control and effect options on their amps might contribute to/affect a tone, including how they inter-relate, is not a completely unreasonable expectation when someone hands over their hard-earned.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:09 pm
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Perhaps they consider the amp a musical instrument and they choose not to include instructions. My strat didn't come with instructions on playing for example.

As a newbie I would love explanations on all of the bells and whistles but I imagine that would be a big job. I did some research on compression to figure out how to use the FUSE compression pedal. Wow. Let's just say I had to read the article a few times and leave it at that...

I wish I was a student in the Champs days :)


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:49 pm
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I would like to think that their reasons are founded on a philosophical position about the learning of music, as you suggest, but sadly I fear their motivation is far less noble - it would cost.

Yes, it is a big job - which is precisely why they don't do it !


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:12 pm
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No, I think maybe...and this might be a stretch, but maybe they're doing something smart for a change.

In America, it's become a business standard to assume that anyone using your product is a complete idiot and can't do any kind of thinking for themselves, so they have to write instructions from the perspective that no one knows anything and that without detailed instructions, they'd either hurt themselves or do some other stupid thing and then sue the company over it.

Like that lady who sued McDonalds or whatever because she burned herself with a cup of hot coffee. IT'S COFFEE!!! I mean, what was she, some kind of moron? It's COFFEE! OF COURSE it's going to be hot... Oh wait, the cup didn't say it was hot. What a stupid b...

Anyway, since no one can be hurt by not knowing what the BIAS dial is for and there's no risk in damaging the amp because there aren't any power tubes, there's no real legal recourse forcing them to explain it in detail. Two, anyone who'd be MESSING with the BIAS would either A. learn what it does or B. already know what it does or they wouldn't be messing with it in the first place.

Half of this amp is not written in the instructions, but that's what's so fun about it for people like myself. I don't need instructions. I know enough from the get-go to not blow it up in my face. Once that's clear, I learn as I go. It's why I know so much about computers and software. I didn't learn it in school or read an instructions booklet. I messed with stuff and I learned as I went. And as a result, I retain all of that information as hard-fought victories rather than lines in some instruction manual.

Maybe, just maybe, Fender knows this and INTENTIONALLY wrote their instructions for the amp a little vague in order to prod you on to learn for yourself. Maybe, just maybe, Fender would like nothing more than for guys like us to become like Slash or EVH. And let's face it, isn't that the ultimate goal of every rocker in us: To become awesome?

</soapbox>

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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:57 am
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FFXIhealer

Your lack of cynicism is refreshing and does you credit personally, but at the same time gives far too much to Fender. Leo left the building a long time ago. This ain't religion, this is business.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:55 am
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We may have to start a new thread for analyzing the F business model, but here's my .02...
I'm happy that the Mustangs are built in communist China. It's the only way I could afford one. Just as for the same reason (price point), I'm glad the Kenny Wayne Shepherd Strat is MIM. There is no reason to begrudge a company for making smart business decisions that keep it profitable. I would love to work for a company where creativity and profit goes together. I can imagine there is plenty of head-butting over what the creative types would like to do vs what the bean-counters say is doable within budget.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:40 am
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WARNING: This post contains a rant that may or may not apply to you, the reader. Before you proceed, please ABSTRACT yourself from the thread and read with a level of detachment, otherwise you'll probably get offended.

<rant>

And, like typical American consumerism, people get angry at a big company for trying to make a profit, nevermind that the WHOLE REASON a company exists is to make a profit. I don't begrudge a company for trying to have a net positive balance income. Hell, that's what I like to see in my own paychecks. That money is how I buy stuff like my Marshall JVM or the Fender Mustang V.

That money a corporation brings in is turned around and pays for construction materials, R&D research, pays for all the employees that they hire, pays the bills that keep all the lights running in their facilities, etc. I'm pretty sure that if I busted my $@! for 20 years to climb up the corporate ladder and finally get to the top where all of my hard work is now finally getting PAID for and then had a whole bunch of consumers bitching about how much money I make and how I'm screwing over the little man by not caring about them at all...I'd be kinda pissed off about that.

Ultimately, you have only a few choices in this matter. A. People can continue to be ignorant of facts and talk like they know things, making themselves look stupid in the process. B. People can get off their own $@! and FIX the problem themselves, thereby proving their original point that the company was full of a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings because look, I fixed your problem for you and it wasn't that hard... C. People could decide to not be a hypocrite and keep their mouths shut. It's a $200 amp, not a $2,000 amp. People need to be grateful that they got such a bad-ass amp for such a CHEAP PRICE in the first place.

I'm done. I've tried talking good things about Fender's Mustang amps over at the Marshall forum, but most of the people there are close-minded and don't listen. They hate on the Marshall MG series too because it's a solid-state amp. As far as they're concerned, if it doesn't have valves, it's a piece of garbage no matter what the price point and anyone who thinks otherwise is some kind of idiot...nevermind that almost NONE of them have ever TRIED one of the amps they're bashing and really have no room to speak of. I have 3 SS amps, one Marshall and 2 Fender. They're all pretty awesome in their own right for what they do AND for the price point. If I add up the price I've spent on all 3 SS amps I have, that wouldn't even cover HALF of what it cost me to get the Marshall JVM USED.

</rant>

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Fender Mustang V + V412
Fender Mustang II
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Gibson Les Paul Custom Silverburst
Gibson SG Faded Special
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Hagstrom Ultra-Swede
Custom Warmoth Strat


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:02 am
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depepat wrote:
I would like to think that their reasons are founded on a philosophical position about the learning of music, as you suggest, but sadly I fear their motivation is far less noble - it would cost.

Yes, it is a big job - which is precisely why they don't do it !


Indeed. And they would pass the cost along to us. In that context, I don't mind using the internets to figure our what the threshold dial does on a pedal, or what bias is.

If I went out and bought all of the amps and devices the Mustang delivers I would have a pretty large stack of detailed manuals. I didn't do that. I spent 100 bucks. I get what I pay for. I don't think it's sinister.

Edit: I realize I just basically posted what FFXIhealer said - doh! But yeah, we need to have realistic expectations.


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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:44 am
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LOL You said what I said, but in a nice way. :mrgreen:

And if you HAD all that real gear, you'd be the envy of EVERYONE in this forum. :lol:

_________________
Marshall JVM410H + 1960A Lead
Fender Mustang V + V412
Fender Mustang II
Marshall Lead 12 3005 MS
Gibson Les Paul Custom Silverburst
Gibson SG Faded Special
Fender American Special Stratocaster
Hagstrom Ultra-Swede
Custom Warmoth Strat


Last edited by FFXIhealer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Information on sag, bias and effect parameters
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:23 pm
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Gratuitous gear porn to keep us warm this winter...
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There, now we feel warm & fuzzy... :lol:


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