It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:22 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:44 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:19 am
Posts: 22
I am a mostly happy Mustang III owner. Not entirely satisfied with the clean tones, for the reasons we all know about, though my particular amp isn't too bad in this area.

I understand why Fender will not, as a practical business matter, say that the amps are defective, and yet there is apparently a ... well, I won't say "repair"... a possible hardware "enhancement" or "mod" for the power amp section that might "change" the clean tones in a way that some picky owners might like. Of course it would void the warranty.

You see, I like big bold clean tones a lot, and I like modding amps a lot, and I like Fender amps. So Fender, how about a little help with this? No need to admit a possible defect exists, or even that some components, if not exactly on spec, might cause a fizzy sound.

Fender, here's what you say:
"Hey Mustang III fans, glad you love your amps! R13 and C112 (or whatever the actual components are) could possibly be upgraded to fancy-spec low-noise parts and you might find the clean tones even more to your liking -- not that there's anything wrong with the stock components. Of course you will void your warranty, but we know how some of you like to mod your gear."

Please?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:31 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:48 pm
Posts: 183
So far they decided not to release the schematics, and I think if they provide the specific details it is sort of an admission of guilt. Worth a shot, but maybe the best bet is for someone to analyze it without their help.

Perhaps they'll be more positively inclined once people start running out of warranty? (Which may be 5 years in the US, but as little as 1 year in some other countries.)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:18 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:45 am
Posts: 184
DArmstrong55 wrote:
yet there is apparently a ... well, I won't say "repair"... a possible hardware "enhancement" or "mod" for the power amp section that might "change" the clean tones in a way that some picky owners might like.


Not to be too critical but ... what did you see that led ya to believe that a repair/enhancement/mod of the power amp section has been identified and that it will help the clean tones or eliminate or reduce the fizz?

We have been discussing this for almost a year now ... and there has not been one single post from a Mustang amp owner that definitively identifies the cause of the problem and how to fix it. We have had plenty of conjecture and plenty of "someone told me that whatever is the cause/fix" or "my tech/repair center/warranty center told me whatever" ... but not one person has reported that they themselves identified the cause of the problem and fixed it ... or reported that a repair of their amp was done by someone else and the fizz was fixed and how it was fixed. So IMO ... there has been no evidence provided by owners that the fizz problem is fixable and how ... save for a luck of the draw replacement under warranty.

KenB


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:39 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:48 pm
Posts: 183
The problem seems analog in nature and develops over time, so it's conceivable that it can be fixed, maybe by replacing the right component or components. It's not a complex circuit, particularly if you exclude the digital stage and limit yourself to the power section. Maybe someone with pertinent knowledge would be able to find the cause.

As for why no one has done it until now, the people in this forum are a very small sample. Maybe someone somewhere has done it. Or maybe not. :)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:30 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:19 am
Posts: 22
@KenB: I've read all the postings, I think, here and elsewhere. It's hearsay, I know, but there have been posts (in this forum, IIRC) claiming that a Fender person of some sort had said that they *do* have a hardware fix for the problem. I should find and link them here, and maybe I'll do that tomorrow, but I should be practicing now.) If it's true that Fender does have a fix, I'd just like to suggest a way to frame their communications about it and to encourage them to do so.

I really hope that some amp guru will identify the problem somehow. In fact, I would even consider giving my amp over to the right person to work on it. *If* they find the problem and fix it, I'd have a better amp and they'd have... the glory? (I wouldn't be able to pay for many hours of such a person's time.) If they broke it, I'd lose.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:25 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:45 am
Posts: 184
@DArmstrong55 That's my point ... hearsay isn't truth ... and reports that Fender has a fix are just that. Fact is after almost a year of this we haven't seen one single bit of evidence that Fender has fixed anything ... save for one owner who reported Fender replaced the power supply and the fizz went away ... but later returned. Seems to me there has been more than ample time for us to see concrete evidence that Fender has a fix ... but so far we've seen zip.

Practically speaking, the amp is fixable ... after all it's just hardware and software and those things can be changed ... although who knows how much effort the fix would require.

I agree with ya ... I'd like someone to tear into the amp, identify the cause of the problem, fix it and tell us how ... as opposed to merely telling us another theory as to the cause.

Until someone has first hand experience of the fix ... I'm gonna remain a skeptic and assume there is none.

KenB


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:53 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:31 am
Posts: 1281
I've got a V head. I haven't played it through a cabinet so I can't say if the amp fizzes via the cabinet. I use the V head FX Sends into a TASCAM US-144 USB interface and I monitor and record the V head via Reaper, Alesis speakers, and Sony headphones and it fizzes. I use a Furman power conditioner and there's no ground loops. There is noise on the V head USB cable. There is noise from the CPU of the computer. The USB cable and CPU noises go away with subtle noise gate settings. If I crank the gain above 3 on the V head most amp models will fizz, some will be so noisy, they are unusable rendering the amp useless if you use the gain above 3. If I keep the gain at 3 or under, there's no or minimal fizz. To compensate for the *defect* I've interjected a Zoom G9.2tt into the signal chain to tame and color the signal before the V head input. The G9.2tt has a similar fizz issue as do all digital effects I've tried. If I crank the Zoom tube Accelerator or tube Energizer (it has two 12ax7 tubes in the preamp section), it produces double fizz. However, if I keep the V head at or under 3 on the gain stage and if I keep the settings around 50% on the Zoom, the two combine to make the perfect sound with no fizz! I get the presence and loudness on clean tones without fizz and I get massive distortion from the high gain amp models using the Zoom with the V head.

I'm not an electrical engineer. But, I've had enough experiences with so many different digital effects I can clearly hear that the Mustang fizz problem lies in the output timing of the gain frequencies. The gain frequency, the fizz, is making it through to the output faster than the total tone yielding the fizz trail off anomaly. Find out where that gain/fizz frequency is jumping ahead of the rest of the signal and slow it down and the fizz problem will go away -- I'm accomplishing it now in a round about way, sacrificing tone, via time-based effects, yo!

Of course, everything else has to be perfect for the digital modeler to work....no EMF, no crossed wires, no noisy cheap wires, etc.

:wink:


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:02 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:19 am
Posts: 22
I'm glad you've found a workaround, but I'd like to improve the amp, not get another modeler like the Zoom to start messing with. Also it it's really "the output timing of the gain frequencies" wouldn't that be a software issue?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:07 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:10 am
Posts: 9
I was very tempted to open the III and start probing around... but, on modern boards, diving in without the schematics can be a B***, as I decided to return the amp for a II, I did not want to void the warranty. And I am absolutely certain that Fender engineers have the problem already solved. Fender's problem is not technichal at this point, but logistics. On relatively inexpensive mass-produced amps, I do not think there will be a fix until the 2nd generation of Mustangs, That is why I returned the III for a II (and I am very happy with it).

mpr wrote:
The problem seems analog in nature and develops over time, so it's conceivable that it can be fixed, maybe by replacing the right component or components. It's not a complex circuit, particularly if you exclude the digital stage and limit yourself to the power section. Maybe someone with pertinent knowledge would be able to find the cause.

As for why no one has done it until now, the people in this forum are a very small sample. Maybe someone somewhere has done it. Or maybe not. :)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Possible new approach for Fender re fizz?
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:36 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:31 am
Posts: 1281
DArmstrong55 wrote:
I'm glad you've found a workaround, but I'd like to improve the amp, not get another modeler like the Zoom to start messing with. Also it it's really "the output timing of the gain frequencies" wouldn't that be a software issue?

We've moved past workaround! I found an easy but expensive "fix"! ...I plugged the Zoom G9.2tt into the effects loop, which bypasses the Mustang pre-amp and DSP sections. Using the Zoom as the pre-amp/DSPer, the fizz is gone, gone! And, the Zoom sounds amazing, it thoroughly lives up to its advertised description!

The fizz defect is absolutely not in the Mustang power amp and absolutely is in the Mustang pre-amp/DSP section!

Here's what I thought I was buying via Fender's ad:

"vintage Fender sparkle (...modulation, delay and reverb), all easily and instantly accessed."

Here's what I got:

Slow and noisy patch changes and fizz, not vintage sparkle, not instant access.

I believe Fender owes me and every Mustang owner with the fizz problem a huge apology and a fizz free modeler with instant access -- a fizzy modeler and slow and noisy patch changes are not what we were advertised into buying.

Fender, I am demanding a V head that is as advertised, please! I purchased vintage Fender sparkle and instant access to patches. The V head I received has slow, noisy patch changes and there is loud annoying fizz on all "clean" amp models, and the fizz is even worse on high gain amp sims!

The verdict is in. Anything less than vintage sparkle and instant access is not what is being advertised.

I strongly urge Fender remove the false statements from their ads about "vintage Fender sparkle" and "instant access", admit to the defect, and begin the long expensive process of fixing the fizz and noisy patch change issues.

The only explanation I can think of is; it's more cost effective to ignore the problem than it is to fix it! If that can be proven in addition to the utter embarrassment of the whole process, maybe we can convince a court to make that not a viable option in the future by penalizing Fender not only for the defect but also for ignoring it cuz it's more cost effective to do so.

The company I got the amp from adds a year warranty to the manufacturer's warranty. I'll bet ya they're not gonna be too happy about dealing with this problem now or in the future as I will bust their basket balls over this and do expect from the company a replacement that don't fiz and that provides instant access.

Now that there is a definitive fix (bypassing the defective pre-amp/DSP section, the heart of the amp), I expect immediate action in the form of either a full-refund or a V head as advertised not as delivered!

Had Fender stated that their "clean" amp modelers were fizzy and the patch changes noisy and slow, I would not have purchased the V head -- nuff said. It's time for immediate action Fender, the clock is ticking, time is money!


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: