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Post subject: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:04 am
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Hey guys, I've been using my MIII for more than 6 months now and I have a couple of questions, if you be so kind to help me. And yes, I've searched throughout the forums looking for answers, but nay, they elude me. I'll try to be as specific as I can.
A little background first: I play alternative rock, I am a rhythm guitar player, in the lines of Alter Bridge and such. I own a stock Schecter Solo 6 Custom, no mods have been made. I'm not using any additional pedals and/or pedalboard of any kind and I only have the 2-button footswitch. I'm looking for more brightness, punch and aggressiveness in my sound. As far I've tried, it's always missing presence and snarl. It's not the pickups, they are Seymour Duncans. So, could you please help me search the sound I'm looking for? Resuming, I'm looking for:
-Presence
-Brightness
-Aggressiveness and snarl

Second, the stomboxes: as far as overdrive goes, what is better? Amp gain or pedal?
And what about pedals or pedalboard use with the MIII? There seems to be no definitive answer to this question.

Look at this thread:

http://www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=53465

There is a need for answers like these. Perhaps if we had more information coming from the ones that made it, instead of tinkering every switch and trying every combination of buttons until you get it right, we could have that info and spend all that time playing music. All this information I'm looking for should be available for us as soon as the product is out.

*sigh*

Sorry about the rant, had to get that out of my chest.

And again, thanks to everyone that decides to help me. "Try it yourself" and "Use your ears" comment do not help me, so try a little bit constructive if you can. If not, look away.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:06 am
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Try it yourselfr may not help you, but it is the most appropriate answer. More brightness, come on now, turn the treeble and presense up, use a different amp model with different cabs. Really, how can anyone here tell you something that should be completely obvious?

I just got my MIII two days ago, and all the early fun is going through and shaping your own sounds and saving them. My sound has been TOO bright if anything, and I find myself turning up the bass and the controls are shockingly good. When I bring up thew bass it really comes up. The treble control really moves the treble, so how in the world could you not get a bright sound out of such a bright amp?

Snarl? I'm getting as much or as little snarl as I could want. Turn the gain up, use an amp that originally has snarl to it.

Not trying to be an azz, but I just don't get this kind of post. It almost feels like it's a back handed way of trying to say something bad about the amp, while trying to cloak it in the form of asking for help. This is the most trebly, bright amp I have ever owned, so if it's too dark for you, I don't know how you will ever find an amp that is bright enough. You'll eventually have to run two or three eq pedals in front of an amp with all the mid to low frequencies turned all the way down, lol. But seriously, this amp, not bright enough? I don't get it. Not snarly enough, I don't get it. I am already acheiving incredibly diverse sounds and can make it do anything I want after only two days. Help me understand your question.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:04 pm
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jeffguitar wrote:
This is the most trebly, bright amp I have ever owned, so if it's too dark for you, I don't know how you will ever find an amp that is bright enough. You'll eventually have to run two or three eq pedals in front of an amp with all the mid to low frequencies turned all the way down, lol. But seriously, this amp, not bright enough? I don't get it. Not snarly enough, I don't get it. I am already acheiving incredibly diverse sounds and can make it do anything I want after only two days. Help me understand your question.



Well, he could replace the stock speaker with just a tweeter from Radioshack. :lol:

Seriously though, I too find these amps to be very bright - especially with the stock speaker.

JackOfBlades, could it be that the tone control on your guitar is rolled off? Check that first or... and I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, get some Q-Tips and clean your ears and get your hearing checked. I'm serious about that. These amps can be downright "ice to the eardrum" bright. If you've cranked the treble and presence and it's still not bright enough, there's something wrong... with your hearing. Again, I'm not saying that to be mean.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:41 pm
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Try Metal 2000
212C. Cab
boost treble and presence and use one of the compressors. I listen to alter bridge as well and find this works well. Adjust to taste.taste


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:49 pm
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Well @jeffguitar, I'm going to take the positive out of your comment and I'll ignore the bad. If that's what you think that my post is:
Quote:
"It almost feels like it's a back handed way of trying to say something bad about the amp, while trying to cloak it in the form of asking for help."
That's up to you, buddy. This is the Internet, I have no need to "cloak" my oppinion in any way. And you may have been using it after two days and got the whole picture clear, kudos to you. I haven't, but eventually I will. Remember, we were all newbies once, whatever topic could be, we were. But yes, perhaps I did not made my question clear enough. I'm trying to learn how to use this amp so I can get my sound closer to the bands I like. After that, I can tweak it to my taste. That's all.
So, that out of the way, @DTown, I'll try what you're suggesting.


Last edited by JackOfBlades on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:32 am
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Try a simple equalizer in the loop. A pedal like Boss GE7 or even a cheaper one will allow you to set up you sound as you want.

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:19 am
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JackOfBlades wrote:
I'm looking for more brightness, punch and aggressiveness in my sound. As far I've tried, it's always missing presence and snarl.


OK, first let me say at outset that I'm an oldie experienced player and a big fan of the Mustangs. I had one on approval for 3 weeks and really liked it, but ultimately it didn't fit my personal needs.

What you're describing, and there is simply no getting away from it, is the inherent difference as between a pure-DSP (digital signal processing) amp such as the Mustangs, and a valve amp. Although the Mustangs give tremendous bang for buck and sound very good, ultimately they are endeavouring to reproduce a facsimile of classic all-valve amps. They have limitations which, although inconsequential for most customers, will be picked up by others like yourself who recognise that the Mustang is missing a little 'something'.

It's for the very reasons you describe that the Vox Valvetronix design incorporates a 12AX7 valve in the power-amp section (this is NOT just 'warming it up' in the pre-amp section) of its patented 'valve-reactor' design. The new VTX150 Pro Neodymium (that I've just been loaned) has a next generation valve-reactor circuit with an EL84. The result is arguably the best truly valve-like modeling tones/sparkle/punch/snarl from any modeling amp currently on the market. Vox went the hybrid route because it couldn't get that power-valve punch with just modeling alone.

Now, this on its own doesn't help you but it does reaffirm what you're hearing and explains why. So are there things you can do to help get you nearer to the tones you're after? The answer is, a guarded 'yes' ...but only up to a point because you can't change the amps inherent full DSP design ie it will never be able to fully replicate the tone and feel of the real valve amps its modeling.

Forget speaker changes for the moment - the Celestion in the Mustang III is a pretty decent speaker. I would consider experimenting with the following in the FX loop of your Mustang (for those with M1/II that have no FX loop, these units work as gain boosts in front of the amp):

1. A 7-band simple stomp box EQ. Using this in conjunction with the onboard EQ will give you a much broader and detailed control of your EQ bands which the onboard EQ can't give you alone. You'll be able to raise/scoop mids, increase higher frequencies for more 'sparkle' and bass frequencies for more bottom end. Increasing the level slider will not only give you more volume (I tend to keep mine at about 0.5) but you'll hear a definite 'edge' has been added too.

You don't need to spend a lot - the industry 'standard' is the Boss GE7, but I use in inexpensive Behringer EQ700 which you can buy for about £17 UK. The build of the Boss GE-7 is bullet proof, but tonally there's no difference. The EQ700 still has a tough plastic casing so its pretty robust. There are other similar units around too.

http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Ba ... -Pedal/6BF

2. A BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser in the FX loop. This works quite differently to an EQ. A speaker in a guitar amp (ANY amp) has a problem in trying to interpret all the frequencies being thrown at it, at the same time. The result is its 'best interpretation' which is a 'compromise' of the average frequencies. What the BBESSM does is to very fractionally alter the speed at which different frequencies reach the speaker, so it can do a better job of interpreting these. The result is a clearer, punchier and fuller more dynamic '3D' tone. It's the type of effect that is subtle so that after a while you forget it's there....until you turn it off! (Optimal settings on both dials is about 6-7 max each from personal experience)

http://www.bbesound.com/products/stomp- ... stomp.aspx

UK prices circa £90

I use an EQ followed by a BBESSM in the FX loop of my AD120VTX Valvetronix, which work beautifully together and transform the amp into a mega tone monster! I also use a BBE 'Boosta Grand' between the other two, for lead solo boosts that I can just 'kick in'.

3. Warming up the tone at the front end with a pre-amp. You need to be careful not to overdo the settings otherwise you'll be adding distortion. But set thoughtfully, these units can add some nice 'edge/snap & 'snarl' to your tone. I recommend you try the Presonus TubePre which utilises a 12AX7 tube and allows you to control the signal level ie how much valve-tone you want to let through. This unit is placed in front of the amp, and can be used with or without the extra FX loop units mentioned above:

http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail ... oductId=16

These units are circa £89 UK.

Hope all of this, gained from practical experience, is of some help to you.

Best

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:02 am
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Now that's something @Rockcat, thank you for that very important piece of information. I didn't know that about Mustangs, I'll keep it in mind and see if I can get one of those pedals.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:07 pm
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So what ever happened with this? I am curious.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:36 pm
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Still can't get the sound I'm looking for. When I'm playing with my band, my lead guitarist has this "brightness" to his distortion that I don't have. He has a regular Ibanez with stock pups and a small amp with an MetalMaster distortion pedal. Yes, I know analog can't be beaten by an emulation, but mine's seems to be covered by a thick blanket.
I also don't think that my pups are the issue, since they are the Seymour Duncan Hot Rodded Set, and they are good. Any thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:17 pm
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Quote:
but mine's seems to be covered by a thick blanket.


That was exactly the problem with the Blue series Valvetronix. Trust me on this - put an EQ in the FX loop. These old video demos of mine aren't the best, because I was only using a cheap Kodak camera, but it should give you a flavour as to the difference an EQ in the FX loop (NOT direct) can make. The first vid isn't quite as obvious as the second one, but if you flick between the before & after, you'll hear the difference. With the second vid, I had the pedal on the floor so I could switch it on/off as I was playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYViVcU6 ... ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQyzg_0R ... ideo_title

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:56 pm
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Point taken. But hold on, if the amp has its own EQ (treble, mid, bass and so on), why can't the MIII own settings fix this? Isn't this what FUSE is for, tweaking your sound and such?


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:48 pm
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Using an EQ pedal allows you to push certain frequency ranges beyond what the internal amp is capable of pushing. Keep in mind how your signal flows through the amp:

Guitar -> Pre-amp -> Amp Model (EQ/Gain) -> FX Loop -> Power Amp -> Speaker

Since the Gain and EQ stages are built into the Amp Model's DSP stage, there's only so much it can do by itself. This is where tube amps reign supreme (LOL). I'm not sure if the DSP does the EQ before or after the Gain stage in the models, because that definitely affects the way the EQ behaves on the signal path.

Anyway, by running an extra EQ pedal, you can push for those frequencies that you feel are lacking just a bit more right before the Power-Amp stage to the Speakers. I'm thinking about getting a BOSS EQ pedal myself now. This has ALSO come up in the Marshall forums, so it isn't just an issue with solid-state amps.


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:57 am
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I also use a boss eq and it does help. The thing is for me that I don't have a problem getting a nice high end sound. I have problems getting a tight low end sound. It gets close but not quite. Overall, I still like this amp a lot except for the reverbs and some of the effects.(I use a light delay instead of the reverb).


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Post subject: Re: Looking for a better sound.
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:43 am
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What has really worked for me is turning up the channel volume all the way up to 10. Then put in either a compressor or overdrive (using your Fender FUSE software of course...you don't use the software?.....if you don't you really should...you're only getting half the picture of what your amp can really do!) in front of the amp in a chain. Leave the Mix at about 4 for either the comp or the OD. Set your gain generally anywhere between 4 and 7 on the OD and EQ the OD to suit your tastes....The compressor is mostly for punchy clean sounds. These things really helped me find some things dreadfully missing in some of the presets. You can also do the same thing "post amplifier" as well....use your ears to decide what works for you. It took me 6 months or so of playing around with settings to find a few that I liked and if you keep tinkering with it you will stumble across some really wonderful sounds completely by mistake!


Last edited by mortalengines on Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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