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Post subject: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:36 am
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Being new to Fender amp terminology, but not new to audio engineering, I'm unclear about the distinctions between:
  • "Gain" vs.
  • "Volume" vs.
  • "Master"

Might someone educate me, as I didn't come across such definitions in the .pdf's documentation ?

Thanks - for whatever insights,

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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:52 pm
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You are dealing with a modeling amp that allows you to model amp settings and the tone and distortion qualities that are affected by each adjustment, so here they go....

"Gain" and "Volume" correspond to the settings on the amps being modeled by the Mustang.

"Gain:" this is the first stage initial "preamp" gain of the amplifier being modeled. It is where you determine the amp's sensitivity and amount of preamp distortion achieved.

"Volume:" This is the second (or third) gain stage, or the "power amplifier" volume of the amp being modeled. It determines how loud the modeled amp would be, but most tube amps will also add an additional level of distortion or warmth in this amp stage.

General rule... If you want a more clean sound, use lowfirst stage "gain" and a higher "Volume." The preamp will not go into overdrive distortion.

If you want a more crunchy or distorted sound, go with higher first stage "gain" and lower power amp "volume." The preamp will go into distortion or overdrive, but the reduced power amp gain will keep you from blowing everyone's ears out...

Now, here is the beauty of the modeling amp.....

You can experiment with all manner of gain and volume settings on the modeled amp. For example: You can keep the preamp "gain" low for a clean first stage amp, but drive the power amp volume all the way until the power amp stage gives its own type of discortion effects and the modeled speakers give their own kind of breakup...

... while at the same time controlling the ACTUAL loudness of the Mustang amp with the "Master Volume" control.

Master Volume - controls the ACTUAL power output of the Mustang amp. So you can set the modeled amps controls FULL OUT and get a wicked "loud" distorted sound, but play it at bedroom volume levels by keepng the Master Volume at 1 or 1/2 or whatever your ears or family will tolerate.

If I understand this correctly...On some amps, like the Supersonic, there are two different preamp stages running in parallel, each one with its own tone profile and gain settings. These can be blended together to give a great variety of tone profiles, which can be quite spectacular.

I hope this helps a little.

Have fun and play around.... You can't hurt the amp by playng wth the nobs, unless you play it so loud that you break something!

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1976 Alvarez Acoustic w/fishbine pickup; '98 American Series Strat (custom rewired); Modded Gibson Les Paul.
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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:29 am
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nm9p wrote:
"Volume:" This is the second (or third) gain stage, or the "power amplifier" volume of the amp being modeled. It determines how loud the modeled amp would be, but most tube amps will also add an additional level of distortion or warmth in this amp stage.


I have to disagree with this one. I'm not hearing any changes in the sound or the distortion of the amp model if I adjust the "Volume" knob on my M1, it seems to only adjust the volume level. This is good for levelling the volumes between different presets.

Using Fuse, some amp models have a "Master volume" setting in the Advanced amp settings. This has a noticeable effect on the sound of the amp, like with the Metal2000 preset. I'm guessing this is how you can control the amount of distortion in the power amp tubes.

It's often pretty hard to try to compare the sounds of the amp models on different settings of the "Volume" knob, because one has to try to keep the actual volume at a constant level with the "Master" volume knob (not the same thing as the "Master volume" knob on the advanced amp settings. Confusing?). Of course I could record the sound and normalize them...

I'm wondering why Fender still has not made a proper manual for these settings.


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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:11 pm
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As a practical matter... for live situations.... the "master" is the master or maximum volume and the "gain" allows you to adjust individual dirt or crunch or whatever. THe "volume" also has some tonal effect but it is also quite useful in adjusting the relative volumes as you switch between settings i.e. rhythm to lead volumes etc.

Of course, that's pretty basic and pedestrian thinking on my part, but it works. Feel free to be far more creative.

Best of luck,

mj


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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:25 pm
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aNovitiate wrote:
Being new to Fender amp terminology, but not new to audio engineering, I'm unclear about the distinctions between:
  • "Gain" vs.
  • "Volume" vs.
  • "Master"

Might someone educate me, as I didn't come across such definitions in the .pdf's documentation ?

Thanks - for whatever insights,


This thread will hopefully make things clear for you. (Do especially pay attention to Orcatraz' explanations.)

PITA


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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:52 pm
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nm9p wrote:
"Volume:" This is the second (or third) gain stage, or the "power amplifier" volume of the amp being modeled. It determines how loud the modeled amp would be, but most tube amps will also add an additional level of distortion or warmth in this amp stage.


I feel compelled to correct you on this one.

They should really re-label the "Volume" knob as Level, Preset Level or Preset Volume. To the uninitiated, it can understandably be a bit confusing. Anyway, this control has nothing to do with the Power Amp section of the modeled amp. It is there to simply to allow you to set the volume level of the current preset and can be saved with the preset. How the Mustangs deal with "Power Tube" distortion depends on the amp model being used. Twins, Champs, Deluxes, Bassmans and Princetons have no Master Volumes in the real world - at least the ones modeled by the Mustang. Thus, the Gain knob in these models controls both "Preamp" and "Power Tube" distortion. The real 80's Marshall, Mesa and Supersonic all have Master Volume controls so in the Advanced Amp Parameters there will appear a virtual "Master Volume" for these models and it will control the amount of "Power Tube" distortion.

O.


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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:01 pm
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Thanks to ALL for taking the time to educate on these subtleties. I think I get what you were illustrating.

From an audiophlle (audio engineering) viewpoint, I think that these controls could have been more clearly labeled, but your explanations/translations greatly clarify ... and will help get more results/fun out of 'modeling amps'.

Hopefully, others will benefit, as well. Many thanks, again.

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Post subject: Re: define: Gain vs. Volume vs. Master
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:09 pm
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I stand corrected, O.

I answered quickly from memory, having played a lot with all the settings and was trying to kep it as simple as possible and oversimplified.
Indeed, there are some models that have "Master Gain" in the advanced amp setup that will affect power amp distortion, but many that do not.

Thanks for clarifying my hurried answer.




Orcatraz wrote:
nm9p wrote:
"Volume:" This is the second (or third) gain stage, or the "power amplifier" volume of the amp being modeled. It determines how loud the modeled amp would be, but most tube amps will also add an additional level of distortion or warmth in this amp stage.


I feel compelled to correct you on this one.

They should really re-label the "Volume" knob as Level, Preset Level or Preset Volume. To the uninitiated, it can understandably be a bit confusing. Anyway, this control has nothing to do with the Power Amp section of the modeled amp. It is there to simply to allow you to set the volume level of the current preset and can be saved with the preset. How the Mustangs deal with "Power Tube" distortion depends on the amp model being used. Twins, Champs, Deluxes, Bassmans and Princetons have no Master Volumes in the real world - at least the ones modeled by the Mustang. Thus, the Gain knob in these models controls both "Preamp" and "Power Tube" distortion. The real 80's Marshall, Mesa and Supersonic all have Master Volume controls so in the Advanced Amp Parameters there will appear a virtual "Master Volume" for these models and it will control the amount of "Power Tube" distortion.

O.

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Pastor Ken - NM9P

1976 Alvarez Acoustic w/fishbine pickup; '98 American Series Strat (custom rewired); Modded Gibson Les Paul.
Mustang III; Crate v33 2-12; Raven G20; Digitech RP-2000; Morley Bad Horsie 2; various Danelectric stomps ...


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