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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:45 am
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The biggest issue with DSP relates to the tone, punch, playing dynamics and feel at volume. A lot of modeling amps sound good at lower volumes but, whilst all amps are affected by this, Fletcher Munson syndrome is very much more pronounced with DSP amps. With a tube amp, it's the opposite - many tube amps will sound lack-lustre' at lower volumes but it's when you push the power valves that the 'magic' happens. As you crank the tubes, the tube gets hotter and tonal characteristics & everything such as punch, feel etc changes - a good tube amp will be rich in third order harmonics and mids which is what our ears like - hence why tube amps seem louder than their DSP counterpart.

The H&K Zentera is the only DSP amp I've ever played that changes characteristics with volume almost like a valve amp due to its very sophisticated modeling. No other full DSP amp does this. The new Line 6 hD and AxeFX can't do this either, although the quality of their modeling is sophisticated (but still not quite right on certain models).

Vox' workaround was to use hybrid technology mixing tubes and modeling in a very clever way that gives a very much closer response to an all-tube amp - and the new VTX150 Pro is the first Valvetronix to use an EL84 in the valvereactor circuit (all others 1 or 2 12AX7's in the power stage). But hybrids don't always mean 'better' than full DSP - the Line 6 Spider Valve with Bogner tube power section struggles as volume raises, and the tone is still too digital. And the Fletcher Munson effect was so prevalent on the Line 6 Vetta (full DSP amp) that in the later versions of Vetta II they actually added a Fletcher Munson switch - helps a bit, but not as much as needed.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:52 am
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Rockcat wrote:
Without doubt the very best DSP modeling amp I've ever hear/played is the (now discontined) Hughes & Kettner Zentera. A 200w 2x12" combo (there was a head too) that was built like a tank with uber-top quality components inc. 2 x 32 point Sharc processors, that sounded & felt so close to an all-tube amp that any slight difference is truly minimal even for tube-purists - the tone, punch, touch & playing dynamics were all there in spades & it genuinely sounded better than a lot of tube amps I've played. Highly sought after, used and retained by pro-players, these rarely hit the second-hand market as they're (rightly) still regarded as the 'holy grail' of modeling amps. But new, with the stageboard, these beasts cost £2,500! So the technology was already there years ago, but it's the cost that's the killer and you ain't going to get that type of quality for a 'mass market' amp costing £250!

Rich :wink:

Have you tried the Peavey Vypyr with its SHARC processors? I'm in the market for a smaller, lighter amp, and the modelers/built-in effects amps from Fender, Peavey, Roland, and Vox all have my attention right now. I'm having a heck of a time trying to figure out which one to spend my money on. The nightmares when they fail have become a serious concern as I read more and more reviews on the distributors' sites (guitarcenter.com, musiciansfriend.com, amazon.com, etc.) and the forums on the manufacturers' sites. It seems like I've read the most stories of failures/issues with the Peavey Vypyrs and the Vox Valvetronix, and the least failures/issues with the Fender Mustang and the Roland Cube. Any suggestions/feedback for me? TIA!

John


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:29 am
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I am a former Peavey Vypyr 100 owner, and let me tell you the Mustang IV kicks its butt. The Vypyr was ok, especially on the heavier tones, but the clean and crunchy tones on the Mustang IV are WAY, WAY better and creamier.

Just my 2 cents.


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:55 am
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IMHO the Peavy Vypyr is (tonally) a toy compared to the Mustang or the Valvetronix - lots of bells & whistles (& far too many flashing lights!) that look great on paper but with much poorer tone and a lack of modeling detail (OK for metal though). At volume, particularly high gain models, the amp gets muddy & lacking in bottom end. They also have a lot of build quality (eg no backbrace, very plasticky, knobs fall off etc) & reliability issues, and they have poorer speakers whereas the Mustang III upwards use proper Celestions (& even the speakers in the M1 & M2 aren't too bad at all). There was no FX loop on the Vypyrs I tried - don't know if this is available with the bigger versions/Head.

Plus points for the Vypyr is the Sanpera II foot controller functionality gives way better control/options than either the Mustangs or the newer Valvetronix - although some switching issues have been reported. Also, that there are (if I recall correctly) two versions of each modelled amp (normal & 'hot' I think?).

The above relates to the SS Vypyr - I haven't yet found a Valve Vypyr to play, which I would expect to sound a lot better although speaker quality & build quality/reliability are still likely to be issues.

One pure DSP modeling amp that is less well known but sounds very good is the Laney Prism series - its styling ain't great, but don't let that put you off - this is a good amp. I particularly like the programmable lead boost (a really useful gigging feature missing in the Mustangs, Valvetronix & Vypyr), quality speaker and really nice sounding amp models & effects. The functionality is more limited but Laney has concentrated on the tone and feel (dynamics, touch sensitivity) which is very good, and the Laney amps modelled give a refreshing option to the more 'standard' modeled amp options normally on offer. Effects are good quality too. These amps are also very loud - I played the Laney Prism 65 (60w 1x12") which packs a real punch.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:10 am
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Quote:
Fletcher Munson syndrome is very much more pronounced with DSP amps. With a tube amp, it's the opposite - many tube amps will sound lack-lustre' at lower volumes but it's when you push the power valves that the 'magic' happens. As you crank the tubes, the tube gets hotter and tonal characteristics & everything such as punch, feel etc changes - a good tube amp will be rich in third order harmonics and mids which is what our ears like - hence why tube amps seem louder than their DSP counterpart.



And why is it that DSP amps can't model rich "third order harmonics and mids?"


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:37 pm
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kartes wrote:
I am a former Peavey Vypyr 100 owner, and let me tell you the Mustang IV kicks its butt. The Vypyr was ok, especially on the heavier tones, but the clean and crunchy tones on the Mustang IV are WAY, WAY better and creamier.
Just my 2 cents.

I've still got my Peavey Vypyr 75 and I have to agree with you. I bought the Mustang II when it first came out and a full Mustang V setup when it first came out. I won't sell the Peavey 'cause I can't get enough back out of it, but truth is I only play it once in a great while just for the heck of it and never with any guitar with single coils. The Vypyr is just not a very good amp for clean sounds, but it will screech with the best of them and yes, it's one complicated SOB.

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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:43 pm
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I have the vypyr 15 and 30w combo amps, also have the mustang I and V, here is my opinion of these amp's, i do agree that the mustang has warmer and better sounding clean amp models but the vypyr also sounds good if you dig in and tweak it's clean amp models but the real secret is that i had to make my own version of the weber beam blocker(a blank cd covered with felt), i did this to filter out the high end harshness from the vypyr 30, the vypyr 15 sounds good without a beam blocker, i also came up with the 0 pitch shift setting for the vypyr, it give's the amp a much warmer and rounder tone, check out the vypyr forums for more info. I would not say the vypyr is better then the mustang i like both just the same, tone is just too subjective to keep arguing over this issue, go to the vypyr forms and many will say how much better the vypyr is over the mustang and here it is visa versa. The effects are not as good overall in the mustang compared to the one's in the vypyr in my opinion, the reverbs need improvement in the mustang's and the pitch shifting does too, the vypyr and my other amp modelers have better sounding reverbs then the mustang,(reverbs in mustang sound too dull to me not enough high end), even my digitech rp80 has better reverbs.


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:21 am
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My episode with the Mustang V ended today. I returned my fizz box to the shop and they agreed there is a problem and also agreed to change the product to another, YAMAHA MG124CX mixer :D
I'll stick to vintage tube amps.

I wish good luck to all new Mustang owners: May the fizz never be with you!!


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:14 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
Quote:
Fletcher Munson syndrome is very much more pronounced with DSP amps. With a tube amp, it's the opposite - many tube amps will sound lack-lustre' at lower volumes but it's when you push the power valves that the 'magic' happens. As you crank the tubes, the tube gets hotter and tonal characteristics & everything such as punch, feel etc changes - a good tube amp will be rich in third order harmonics and mids which is what our ears like - hence why tube amps seem louder than their DSP counterpart.



And why is it that DSP amps can't model rich "third order harmonics and mids?"


As I've mentioned the Hughes & kettner Zentera is the ONLY full DSP amp I've played that responds very nearly 'right' in this regard. It's not so much that DSP amps can't get close but the costs to get say 5% better response become inversely proportional to a realistic selling cost. Most DSP amps are currently aimed at the bulk 'budget' market where the cost of top quality dual processors and the more detailed modeling algorhthms plus top quality speaker(s) would mean the cost of a Mustang IV would be 4-5 times the price at least!

It's also a misconception that a 'full SS tranny' amp can't replicate a valve amp because in theory there's no reason they shouldn't be able to - but again it's all down to cost and marketability. Arguably the best SS amp ever made (and as used and endorsed by Pete Townsend) was the Blue Tone Pro-30M.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/product- ... -amps.html

The company went under because it couldn't compete with lower cost DSP amps but you can hear some clips here. I had the pleasure of playing one many years ago - and it sounded/felt very, very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgGA6qx2NzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN2To3CS ... re=related

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:16 pm
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The SCXD is a great example of DSP/hybrid tube tone. 6V6's make the best digi-antidote with their natural warmth, bloom and harmonic richness.


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:22 am
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I think that the tube vs dsp arguments as to snobs and all is not really productive nor is it accurate. There are tube snobs but not that many. There are also those who prefer tubes, and that is fine.
I own a 64 Blackface Deluxe Reverb, a 59 Tweed Champ, an Egnater Rebel 30, an old 1938 Wabash amp with octal pres and 6V6's which sounds so full, and a Mustang III.
I adore all of my amps, including the M3. I pull it out most anytime I want to play. Light wieght, a very good model of my favorite amps available whenever, and great sound. I love this thing. Even having some of the most sought after amps ever I love this M3.
I do play all at one time or another and will keep them all, but mostly I pull out either the M3, (most often by far) or my Egnater Rebel 30. The Rebel gives wonderful tube sounds from strikingly crystal clears to grind and beyond. With the wah, Tube Screamer, compresser, and Proco Turbo Rat in my pedalboard I can get nearly anything. But the Egnater can get very close to anything just by tweaking.
But the M3 requires no pedals except those provide, (2 and 4 button). Set up a few amps to your own flavors and you can rock or sing the blues or anything else with fine quality!
Just my take. There is no real room for heated arguments. All have opinions and all. Just play what you like and buy it!
Tom


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:34 pm
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Tubes and trannys can live together as one. I love both, and each has its strengths.

I love being able to dial in the exact tone and OD and multi-EFX I want at precisely the level I want with the MIII. Can't do that with my toob amps.

But each tube amp has its unique charm (read: single great tone) that can't be duplicated by a modeler. Modelers never get quite the right presence or dynamics or responsiveness. Especially on cleans.

In overdrive mode, modelers can come a lot closer to tubes.


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:56 pm
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Only problem with that theory, musicmaster2, is that there seems to be a general view on this forum that the Mustangs do in fact make a pretty good job of modeling the clean tones of some of the classic tube amps, and are much less convincing at the overdriven/distorted stuff !

Certainly that is my own experience after 6 months, first with a Mustang II and then a III.


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:31 am
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depepat wrote:
Only problem with that theory, musicmaster2, is that there seems to be a general view on this forum that the Mustangs do in fact make a pretty good job of modeling the clean tones of some of the classic tube amps, and are much less convincing at the overdriven/distorted stuff !

Certainly that is my own experience after 6 months, first with a Mustang II and then a III.


Mine too with my Mustang IV - gets gigged (very!) regularly, and I've totally given up on the onboard overdriven sounds, even after hours of tweaking. I've gone back to my old trusty pedal collection for overdriven and distorted tones now. The built in models sound great playing distorted stuff at low volume, but just sound thin and weak when the master volume is up above about 6.

The clean sounds, however, are absolutely superb at decent volume - I've had a few Fender tube amps which have sounded a lot less convincing, put it that way. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Sold my Mustang IV
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:30 am
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Rockcat wrote:
IMHO the Peavy Vypyr is (tonally) a toy compared to the Mustang or the Valvetronix - lots of bells & whistles (& far too many flashing lights!) that look great on paper but with much poorer tone and a lack of modeling detail (OK for metal though). At volume, particularly high gain models, the amp gets muddy & lacking in bottom end. They also have a lot of build quality (eg no backbrace, very plasticky, knobs fall off etc) & reliability issues, and they have poorer speakers whereas the Mustang III upwards use proper Celestions (& even the speakers in the M1 & M2 aren't too bad at all). There was no FX loop on the Vypyrs I tried - don't know if this is available with the bigger versions/Head.

Plus points for the Vypyr is the Sanpera II foot controller functionality gives way better control/options than either the Mustangs or the newer Valvetronix - although some switching issues have been reported. Also, that there are (if I recall correctly) two versions of each modelled amp (normal & 'hot' I think?).

The above relates to the SS Vypyr - I haven't yet found a Valve Vypyr to play, which I would expect to sound a lot better although speaker quality & build quality/reliability are still likely to be issues.

One pure DSP modeling amp that is less well known but sounds very good is the Laney Prism series - its styling ain't great, but don't let that put you off - this is a good amp. I particularly like the programmable lead boost (a really useful gigging feature missing in the Mustangs, Valvetronix & Vypyr), quality speaker and really nice sounding amp models & effects. The functionality is more limited but Laney has concentrated on the tone and feel (dynamics, touch sensitivity) which is very good, and the Laney amps modelled give a refreshing option to the more 'standard' modeled amp options normally on offer. Effects are good quality too. These amps are also very loud - I played the Laney Prism 65 (60w 1x12") which packs a real punch.

Rich :wink:


The Sanpera II costs almost as much as a Mustang III, and without the Sanpera II you can't use all the features of the Vypyr, so that makes the Vypyr the most expensive modelling amp of the bunch.

Based on that fact alone, I've subtracted the Vypyr from my list and added the G-DEC 3 30 instead. Now for a comparison between the Mustang III and the G-DEC 3 30; that's a question for a new topic.

John


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