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Post subject: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:03 am
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http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz

The above seems to be the most posted example of 'amp fizz' so my comments below relate to this sound.

I'd like to start by saying that (I'm UK) I've now tried an M2, 2 of the M3's & an M4 - and NONE of these amps had this sound. They were all as clear as a bell and sounded GREAT - I spent time mixing FX/amps/cabs/settings (couldn't do too much with the M2 though as it doesn't give the same type of access without FUSE) and I could not get a bad tone out of any of them.

This means that there is NO issue with the modeling software. The problem has to be elsewhere

The sound recorded is not what I would describe as 'fizz' - this is more like a nasty interference caused either from an external source or internally from the amp. I think the odds are that this is power supply related - either external due to 'dirty electricity' , (which I've commented on before) other external interference or there's an issue with shielding in the guitar, cables, and/or the amps power supply. Different transformers are used in the USA - this could be the problem.

Whilst it's easy to point the finger at the Mustang, and whilst it may be the problem, it's important to completely eliminate all other possible causes/contributory factors. This mean a full check of your guitars wiring/shielding, guitar cable, power cable, and mains - which means taking the amp out and trying it in at least 2-3 completely different locations (not just a different room in your home).

The noise recorded actually sounds like an effect is still on (eg the ring modulator). Although I think this is unlikely it's not inconceivable that there may be a software glitch whereby there is some kind of bleed through from an effect even if its switched off. It's worth going in to the controls and ensuring all FX are turned right down to zero even if they're 'off' just to see if this makes any difference.

But whatever the problem is guys, this is NOT to do with the modeling or it would be consistent with all amps.

Assuming you can totally eliminate all external causes I recommend that those of you getting this awful sound (as recorded) get your amp checked out by a good quality amp tech because the problem is almost certainly somewhere in the hardware - this could be anything from a faulty resistor to a faulty/incompatible power transformer, or even a power stage problem.

If he finds the problem and details this in writing, THEN you can tackle Fender with specifics.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:39 am
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I've said all along it's not the modelling, the simple fact it can't be heard with headphones points in the direction of the power amp.
You can read our conclusion in the Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound) topic.
I'm still confinced it's interference coming from the display leaking into the power amp section because the Mustang I & II don't have Fizz problems and have no display.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:59 am
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Quote:
The noise recorded actually sounds like an effect is still on (eg the ring modulator).


It sounds more like flanging to me but maybe there's a way to set a ring moduator to get a similiar sound. Not that I think an effect is left on, you can get similiar "effects" in all kinds of ways.

If it has a class D power amp, like someone suggested then that might be the source. There's lots of opportunity to mess with the phase of the signal there.

It also may be that there are two issues here. The loud fizz which gets fixed when Fender replaces your amp with one that doesn't have loud fizz and the more subtle one that some folks and Fender talked about.

Without Fender getting involved in the discussion in an open and honest way it's very hard to really sort this out.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:27 am
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Yes, a flangy sound I concluded after listening to your example.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:46 pm
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Rockcat wrote:
http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/mustang-sound-strange-fizz

The above seems to be the most posted example of 'amp fizz' so my comments below relate to this sound.

I'd like to start by saying that (I'm UK) I've now tried an M2, 2 of the M3's & an M4 - and NONE of these amps had this sound. They were all as clear as a bell and sounded GREAT - I spent time mixing FX/amps/cabs/settings (couldn't do too much with the M2 though as it doesn't give the same type of access without FUSE) and I could not get a bad tone out of any of them.

This means that there is NO issue with the modeling software. The problem has to be elsewhere

The sound recorded is not what I would describe as 'fizz' - this is more like a nasty interference caused either from an external source or internally from the amp. I think the odds are that this is power supply related - either external due to 'dirty electricity' , (which I've commented on before) other external interference or there's an issue with shielding in the guitar, cables, and/or the amps power supply. Different transformers are used in the USA - this could be the problem.

Whilst it's easy to point the finger at the Mustang, and whilst it may be the problem, it's important to completely eliminate all other possible causes/contributory factors. This mean a full check of your guitars wiring/shielding, guitar cable, power cable, and mains - which means taking the amp out and trying it in at least 2-3 completely different locations (not just a different room in your home).

The noise recorded actually sounds like an effect is still on (eg the ring modulator). Although I think this is unlikely it's not inconceivable that there may be a software glitch whereby there is some kind of bleed through from an effect even if its switched off. It's worth going in to the controls and ensuring all FX are turned right down to zero even if they're 'off' just to see if this makes any difference.

But whatever the problem is guys, this is NOT to do with the modeling or it would be consistent with all amps.

Assuming you can totally eliminate all external causes I recommend that those of you getting this awful sound (as recorded) get your amp checked out by a good quality amp tech because the problem is almost certainly somewhere in the hardware - this could be anything from a faulty resistor to a faulty/incompatible power transformer, or even a power stage problem.

If he finds the problem and details this in writing, THEN you can tackle Fender with specifics.

Rich :wink:


@ Rockcat

The MII had a fizz problem way before the MIII to MV were on the market ... and a software revision seems to have fixed it for most people ... so if the fizz wasn't caused by modeling ... how do you explain the results of the software revision?

Regarding the fizz that was recorded ... seems to me that if it was caused by interference that it would be audible 100% of the time ... not just as notes ring out. If it's caused by an effect that seems to be on ... but in fact isn't ... maybe we're back to a software problem.

Personally ... I dunno what the cause is ... but I think it could be one or a combination of things. I don't think anything should be ruled out because other than theories presented here ... I don't see any experimental evidence to point a clear direction. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion ... I just don't see any hard evidence that it's correct.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:02 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
@ Rockcat

The MII had a fizz problem way before the MIII to MV were on the market ... and a software revision seems to have fixed it for most people ... so if the fizz wasn't caused by modeling ... how do you explain the results of the software revision?

Regarding the fizz that was recorded ... seems to me that if it was caused by interference that it would be audible 100% of the time ... not just as notes ring out. If it's caused by an effect that seems to be on ... but in fact isn't ... maybe we're back to a software problem.

Personally ... I dunno what the cause is ... but I think it could be one or a combination of things. I don't think anything should be ruled out because other than theories presented here ... I don't see any experimental evidence to point a clear direction. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion ... I just don't see any hard evidence that it's correct.

KenB


Well, here's the first piece of real evidence from Vassago66 who's just had his MIII fixed by Fender - looks like it's the power supply, which is exactly what I suggested! Interesting that the speaker was changed too - possibly it was damaged when getting to the power-supply or perhaps the engineer found a tear in the cone. As these are genuine Celestions it would be unusual for there to be a problem with the speaker, but it's always possible.

Quote:
Well, Fender are still idiots for issue such a bullshit statement but I got a call today, the amp if finally ready and "fixed".

I've been playing it for the past 3 hours and the fizz is completely gone. I did my IT guy geek curious act and I found out the serial# on the speaker is not the same so they changed it, and the tech changed the power supply unit since he measured (his words) "unacceptable readings". He concluded by telling me that we should not be playing clean with the gain higher than 3 on any amp ... as if I would play clean with the gain on 10...

Anyway, it seems this problem is fixable and most certainly hardware. We will see in 3 months how it turns out and if the problem comes back.

My advice, take the plunge on the warranty repairs and harass them since it seems that's what it takes to get an answers. The tech has been calling Fender every day for the past two week asking for instructions and authorization on repairs.


Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:23 am
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Rockcat wrote:
Well, here's the first piece of real evidence from Vassago66 who's just had his MIII fixed by Fender - looks like it's the power supply, which is exactly what I suggested! Interesting that the speaker was changed too - possibly it was damaged when getting to the power-supply or perhaps the engineer found a tear in the cone. As these are genuine Celestions it would be unusual for there to be a problem with the speaker, but it's always possible.

Quote:
Well, Fender are still idiots for issue such a bullshit statement but I got a call today, the amp if finally ready and "fixed".

I've been playing it for the past 3 hours and the fizz is completely gone. I did my IT guy geek curious act and I found out the serial# on the speaker is not the same so they changed it, and the tech changed the power supply unit since he measured (his words) "unacceptable readings". He concluded by telling me that we should not be playing clean with the gain higher than 3 on any amp ... as if I would play clean with the gain on 10...

Anyway, it seems this problem is fixable and most certainly hardware. We will see in 3 months how it turns out and if the problem comes back.

My advice, take the plunge on the warranty repairs and harass them since it seems that's what it takes to get an answers. The tech has been calling Fender every day for the past two week asking for instructions and authorization on repairs.


Rich :wink:


A proven out of spec power supply ... interesting! Doesn't quite jive with Fender's announced conclusion does it ...

KenB


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:11 pm
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I wonder if having the scematics available would facilitate self-diagnosis and fixing of the amps...


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:14 pm
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Power supply/hardware issue definitely makes sense.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:31 pm
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I just find it odd that we're doing all Fender's guesswork here.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:53 pm
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And that it took a non-Fender tech to determine the problem. How incredibly lame does that make Fender look???


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:22 pm
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
And that it took a non-Fender tech to determine the problem. How incredibly lame does that make Fender look???


Oh I dunno ... I'm a bit of a skeptic here. After all ... we've only had one report that the power supply was replaced and the fizz went away. I'd feel better about the power supply conclusion if/when we receive more reports that changing it out fixed the fizz problem.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:28 am
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First, you have to have Fender agree to swap power supplies under warranty or people willing to void their warranty by having someone else replace it. Not real likely at this point. :(


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:00 am
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KenB5 wrote:
Musicmaster2 wrote:
And that it took a non-Fender tech to determine the problem. How incredibly lame does that make Fender look???


Oh I dunno ... I'm a bit of a skeptic here. After all ... we've only had one report that the power supply was replaced and the fizz went away. I'd feel better about the power supply conclusion if/when we receive more reports that changing it out fixed the fizz problem.

KenB


The problem is obviously in the high tech double-bifurcated sploshing flange with double negative feedback that Fender put in the Mustang amps.


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Post subject: Re: This is interference NOT amp 'fizz' from the modeling...
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:36 pm
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This thread has been locked. All Mustang fizz discussions will take place in the thread linked to below:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=57294

Lets keep the forum clean, guys.


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