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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:32 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Can you guys with the fizz problem tell us what country you are from?how many are from the usa,europe or some other country?also how long did it take for the fizz problem to develop?i do not have the fizz problem with my mustang I and V but if it does happen i just wanted to know how long it could take before it might happen?


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:21 pm
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
The good news is, this "let them eat cake" decree is backfiring on Fender bigtime. Universal outrage across the Mustang community on forums all over.

The People have spoken.


Is it?
Or are we talking about only a relatively few dissatisfied customers who keep sending in posts?
How many Mustang amps have been sold around the world?
How many of each type?
How many dis-satisfied customers?
What's the geographical split?
How many Mustang amps have been returned?
How many exchanged for another Mustang?
Of those, how many have had the problem resolved, or returned their amp again?
How many have had the problem fixed with a firmware change?
Which firmware seems to be the most problematic?
What's the store's take on this issue - how many units have they sold & what percentage of problems are they receiving?

If a Manufacturer has sold for example 250,000 units worldwide and has had 250 individual complaints, that's only 0.1% - which means that conversely 99.9% of customers are either entirely happy with their Mustang, or aren't concerned enough with the amps 'foibles' to let it spoil their enjoyment of the amp and say anything. Even if there were 2,500 incidents of complaint, that's only 1% - so the Mustang is a 99% successful product!

So just how representative of the Mustangs sales and success or otherwise is shown on forums? What facts are known? The point is that without proper statistical data (which I would expect Fender to have at least some themselves) you really have no idea - and I can't see how you're going to get it other than conducting research on all related forums - and how are you going to identify these and co-ordinate responses? And just how representative are forums of customer feedback?

Fender is a major musical instrument provider - & every manufacturer allows for a certain percentage of 'issues', 'returns' - sure, they'll take on board reported problems and are genuinely interested in customer feedback & will try to resolve issues wherever they reasonably can - hence why they run these forums.

But if (for example) they have a 99.9% successful product out there, but they can't fix what the stats show is a minor issue with a very small fraction of customers in the 'Mark I version' then your comments re 'universal outrage' is just venting steam & not based on hard facts.

If you guys are going to try and step this up a notch you've got to get organised, compile some meaningful data on which to evidence your concerns, and look more objectively and less emotionally at the problem.

Anyone can come on here & make sweeping statements and complain (and most often its just a relative handful of the same people) - but you need more support and more information if you're going to try & progress this in a way that will get Fender to respond in the way that you want.

Rich :wink:

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"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:50 pm
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Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 238
Rockcat wrote:
Musicmaster2 wrote:
The good news is, this "let them eat cake" decree is backfiring on Fender bigtime. Universal outrage across the Mustang community on forums all over.

The People have spoken.


Is it?
Or are we talking about only a relatively few dissatisfied customers who keep sending in posts?
How many Mustang amps have been sold around the world?
How many of each type?
How many dis-satisfied customers?
What's the geographical split?
How many Mustang amps have been returned?
How many exchanged for another Mustang?
Of those, how many have had the problem resolved, or returned their amp again?
How many have had the problem fixed with a firmware change?
Which firmware seems to be the most problematic?
What's the store's take on this issue - how many units have they sold & what percentage of problems are they receiving?

If a Manufacturer has sold for example 250,000 units worldwide and has had 250 individual complaints, that's only 0.1% - which means that conversely 99.9% of customers are either entirely happy with their Mustang, or aren't concerned enough with the amps 'foibles' to let it spoil their enjoyment of the amp and say anything. Even if there were 2,500 incidents of complaint, that's only 1% - so the Mustang is a 99% successful product!

So just how representative of the Mustangs sales and success or otherwise is shown on forums? What facts are known? The point is that without proper statistical data (which I would expect Fender to have at least some themselves) you really have no idea - and I can't see how you're going to get it other than conducting research on all related forums - and how are you going to identify these and co-ordinate responses? And just how representative are forums of customer feedback?

Fender is a major musical instrument provider - & every manufacturer allows for a certain percentage of 'issues', 'returns' - sure, they'll take on board reported problems and are genuinely interested in customer feedback & will try to resolve issues wherever they reasonably can - hence why they run these forums.

But if (for example) they have a 99.9% successful product out there, but they can't fix what the stats show is a minor issue with a very small fraction of customers in the 'Mark I version' then your comments re 'universal outrage' is just venting steam & not based on hard facts.

If you guys are going to try and step this up a notch you've got to get organised, compile some meaningful data on which to evidence your concerns, and look more objectively and less emotionally at the problem.

Anyone can come on here & make sweeping statements and complain (and most often its just a relative handful of the same people) - but you need more support and more information if you're going to try & progress this in a way that will get Fender to respond in the way that you want.

Rich :wink:

I'm thinking that if I was in the market for a new amp and I read these complaints on the Fender forum, saw Fender's response and lack of response, then read similiar complaints on every other guitar forum talking about the Mustang amps, I'd be inclined to buy something else - but that's just me.

There are a lot of guitar amp choices, you don't need to risk getting one that may or may not fizz. And even if it doesn't fizz now, it may start fizzing in the future. Why take a chance.

And even if you were lucky enough to "draw" an amp that didn't fizz, what do you think the resale value of these amps will be after this fizz blow-up. You're buying somthing you're going to have trouble dumping if you become a "more discerning listener that may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation."


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:25 pm
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It seems to me that if this problem didn't exist with earlier firmware versions, that this is a firmware issue and can be fixed. I know that memory limitation in programming firmware are difficult, but Fender should prioritize correctly.

Getting a good quality clean sound is a fundamental for a huge number of mainstream guitarists. We're not all metal heads.

I think that they should sacrifice some of the memory dedicated to the more bizzare effects (does anybody really use the ring modulator?), and dedicate it to getting good quality clean sounds on all the blackface, 2 of the tweeds and the British 60s models.


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:35 pm
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Wow, excuse me. I just heard a recording of the 'fizz' problem...holy moly...fortunately for me my Mustang doesn't have the fizz - just not exactly clean clean sounds on a few amps.

That 'fizz' is horrendous! If my amp did that, I'd return it real quick...

I'd say that if some have it and some don't, Fender has a production line problem and need somebody to figure out what's going on...the do right by their customers...recall and rework all the fizz amps...

Sorry, but that's business...sometimes you lose...I'd think that Fender should consider the long term business implications of NOT doing right by their customers.

BTW, sounds like just one of the effects is not shutting off...ring modulator? Somebody ought to try adding the ring modulator to their setup and see if they can get rid of the fizz by changing the ring modulator settings...if not try a few of the other effects.


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:58 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 621
Have no illusions, Fender is done with this issue. Once something like this gets in the hands of the lawyers and the beancounters the customer always comes last.

No, this is merely a turning point for Fender in which they turn from Leo's legacy and deep tradition of quality and customer regard to the modern, cold, calculating predatory capitalist mode.

Fender, we hardly knew ye.


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:28 pm
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Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:08 am
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I empathize with those that have it. I didn't with the MII I had or the MIII I trade up to and now have. I bought it for home use and some practice gigging. It is just fine for that and a true value when it comes to amps. I feel sorry for those who because of their particular equipment set up and power get the "Fizz" but I think it is more a combination of their equipment and power than an inherent problem in the amp itself. As some have noted they get it some places and not others.

maybe they will get it worked outm I hope so for those who have it and the future of the series


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:25 pm
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Rockcat has raised an interesting question about dirty power. I have a Mustang IV on order as retailers her in Australia have run out of stock and are waiting for a new shipment, I'm told about another 2 weeks. That said, I'm hoping I don't end up with this fizzy hair problem that you Americans seem to have, I could recommend a good hair conditioner, but you'd probably all tell me to piss off.

In all seriousness though (poor jokes aside). I would be interested in knowing if there are any Aussies reading these threads that have bought Mustang 3,4 or 5 amps that are experiencing this problem. I know you guys in the USA are on 120volt and in AUS we run on 240volt and for the most part, I have not had too many issues with dirty power other than the odd venue that is a ticking time bomb when it comes to their power supply.

I know that retailers here have been selling a lot of these amps and have run out of stock, or maybe they have stopped selling them because of these issues, so come on Aussie, speak up and tell us if you have the same problems.

As far as Fender CS support and their response, they are no different to most of the other manufacturers of musical equipment, when it comes to their customers highlighting a serious design fault. Last year I purchased a Line 6 - M13 stompbox modeller and thought how great is this thing. Then one day the damn thing just switched off and turned back on. It has never done it since (touch wood) but I started checing out the forums and lo and behold, the complaints were coming thick and fast. Some customers were finding this happening all the time especially when gigging and you can imagine how awful it would be for this to happen just as your ripping out a great solo.

So, what was the response from Line 6, the same approach as Fender has taken. No response or admitting the fault for ages, to the point were they just ended up ignoring it.

So, I guess what I'm getting at, is that they are all tared with the same brush, when it comes to handling these sorts of issues. The brave new world of high tech in music equipment at budget prices coming out of China, brings with it, questionable quality.

It's the risk I took ordering one of these. Here's hoping!

8beggars


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:10 am
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I have an Australian-bought MIII that so far shows no sign of any problems. Got it two weeks ago and I am very happy with it.

Music stores here in Perth seem to have trouble keeping them in stock; these amps appear to have been big sellers locally, albeit in a fairly small market.

I remain highly sympathetic to all those with an issue with their amps, regardless of where they are from; it must be a pita to deal with. But based on my purely local experience it doesn't sound like a tale of disaster at the checkout, unless of course we Aussie's are deafened by the pounding surf and simply can't hear the problem !


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:55 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
I'm thinking that if I was in the market for a new amp and I read these complaints on the Fender forum, saw Fender's response and lack of response, then read similiar complaints on every other guitar forum talking about the Mustang amps, I'd be inclined to buy something else - but that's just me.

I hear you - & it's quite right that customers vote with their feet - after all, it's their hard earned dosh!

There are a lot of guitar amp choices, you don't need to risk getting one that may or may not fizz. And even if it doesn't fizz now, it may start fizzing in the future. Why take a chance.

However, the problem with the current 'modeling' market at this price point is that they are ALL made to very tight budgets and there are problems reported on all similarly priced products. So even if you buy another make there's no guarantee you won't get other 'foibles'.

And even if you were lucky enough to "draw" an amp that didn't fizz, what do you think the resale value of these amps will be after this fizz blow-up. You're buying somthing you're going to have trouble dumping if you become a "more discerning listener that may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation."

In reality, because modeling amps are not dis-similar to the computer market, resale values will drop like a stone anyway, particularly when the next 'latest & greatest'model comes out. This is where there is a BIG difference between modeling amps and all-valve gear that generally retains realistic resale values - and as we know, 'vintage' amps can demand a significant premium, often significantly more than their original purchase price. So modeling amps should be regarded as totally utilitarian pieces of gear in any event and (particularly the smaller amps) arguably almost 'throw-away technology where the price of repair is uneconomic as compared to the price of a replacement amp.


Rich :wink:

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"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:37 am
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Quote:
In reality, because modeling amps are not dis-similar to the computer market, resale values will drop like a stone anyway, particularly when the next 'latest & greatest'model comes out. This is where there is a BIG difference between modeling amps and all-valve gear that generally retains realistic resale values - and as we know, 'vintage' amps can demand a significant premium, often significantly more than their original purchase price. So modeling amps should be regarded as totally utilitarian pieces of gear in any event and (particularly the smaller amps) arguably almost 'throw-away technology where the price of repair is uneconomic as compared to the price of a replacement amp.


That really takes a bite out of the value of a higher end Mustang amps. You can spend $500 on an "uneconomic to repair" Mustang iV that never has a realistic resale value (which may or may not fizz). And which Fender has admitted has "technical limitations." Or you can buy a used tube amp (not vintage but a real tube amp with real tube amp sounds) that you can own and repair as needed and keep for a lifetime or resell it and get a lot of your money back. All the while knowing you have the real deal. If money is tight, which is really a better value in the long run? And if money is not tight why would you buy a fizzer. Save a little longer and buy an amp that offers real value.

On the other hand, a $99 Mustang 1 is a decent enough practice amp that I can easily recommend to any newbe or open minded old timer. It just seems that the technology doesn't scale up. Although after Fender's response to the fizz issue is hard to recommend that anyone buy anthing from Fender. It seems like we've entered the second "CBS" era. CBS II?


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:26 am
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The only modeling amp I can think of that is still highly sought after and still command fair prices (but very difficult to find) are the Hughes & Kettner Zentera. I played the 2x12" 200w combo for several hours and IMHO it is without doubt the very best modeling amp ever made. It's reliability is legendary and it's the closest sounding amp to an all-valve rig I've ever heard - & believe me, I've played pretty much everything in the modeling sector.

These amps were made for the professional market and retailed (with stage board) at £2,500. Players hold onto these like gold-dust and they are as rare as rocking-horse droppings second-hand. If you want a top quality rugged, professional modeling amp with a truly valve-like response & tone, then this is THE amp to get. Run by 2 x Sharc 32 processors, & with the latest firmware issued by H&K, you simply won't find better. I've been keeping an eye open for one of these for years!

Rich :wink:

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"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:09 am
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Rockcat wrote:
The only modeling amp I can think of that is still highly sought after and still command fair prices (but very difficult to find) are the Hughes & Kettner Zentera. I played the 2x12" 200w combo for several hours and IMHO it is without doubt the very best modeling amp ever made. It's reliability is legendary and it's the closest sounding amp to an all-valve rig I've ever heard - & believe me, I've played pretty much everything in the modeling sector.

These amps were made for the professional market and retailed (with stage board) at £2,500. Players hold onto these like gold-dust and they are as rare as rocking-horse droppings second-hand. If you want a top quality rugged, professional modeling amp with a truly valve-like response & tone, then this is THE amp to get. Run by 2 x Sharc 32 processors, & with the latest firmware issued by H&K, you simply won't find better. I've been keeping an eye open for one of these for years!

Rich :wink:

Not everyone who is interested in a Mustang amp cares if it's a modeling amp or not. In any case, chasing technology that's not ripe is never a good value.


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:59 am
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You guys have some valid points, and counterpoints. Here's the way I see it... The Mustang is what it is. A solid state modeling amp. A damn fine one (compared to its competition). So why risk it if you may or may not get one with fizz? Well, for the average person, $300 or less for a damn fine modeling amp is a risk worth taking. And you can bet that Fender had already calculated that risk long before a Mustang ever saw a showroom floor.

I do not have fizz on mine and I feel bad for you guys who are not happy with yours. But the MAIN reason I bought my amp is for the quality and varity of tones. If I was not happy with the tone on my amp, I would not hestitate to trade it in or return it.


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Post subject: Re: The Fizz is not a small sonic variable.
Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:30 pm
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I have to say, that I have always been a bit of a valve traditionalist. I have had several Fender valve amps including a Hotrod deluxe and old twin. Owned 3 AC30's along the way and quite a few other valve amps. I have also owned quite a few solid state amps not to mention a truck load of effects pedals in my 40 years of playing.

The one thing that I have come to understand, is that the majority of guitarists play in cover bands and while a valve amp might suit a player who is doing originals and may have a handful of sounds that they stick with, that become their trademark sounds, for most of us who play covers, we are trying to emulate so many different guitarists using so many different amps and pedals and this is why we constantly change our amps and effects trying to find a set-up that we are happy with. As someone else mentioned on one of these threads, the problem with valve amps, are that they are a one trick pony, suited to providing a specific sound (good or bad) for what you are after.

This is the main reason I have finally bitten the bullet and purchased a modelling amp, in specific, the Mustang IV. So many people have raved about how good they sound and how versatile they are and that's exactly what you need when playing covers if you are going to try and emulate so many different players.

It's sort of like singers in cover bands. They are trying to emulate so many different singers with differing styles and everyone is born with a particular timbre in their voice, which means they will sound good for some songs and not so great for others. Not because they can't sing, but because their voice box can't replicate a similar timbre that a lot of other singers have. Some of the best covers bands I've listened to, have 2 or 3 lead vocalists so that they can cover as wide a variety of material as possible and so it is with guitar amps and effects.

If the Mustangs give you that sort of flexibility, then there is your reason to buy one. If it comes with the added bonus of fizz for no extra cost, then make sure you write Fender a letter to say thanks or take it back to the retailer and tell them that unless it is rectified promptly, you will never shop with them again and that you will make all of your musician friends aware what disgraceful after sales service they offer and not to buy anything from that retailer EVER. I'm sure if you put it to them that way, they will make a real attempt to resolve the issue for you, or refund your money.

Personally at this price point, I can afford to take the gamble and buy one and if I am unlucky enough to get the fizz and can't get it replaced or fixed, then I won't buy from that retailer again, nor will I buy from Fender again. There are so many other retailers and manufacturers that I can take my hard earned cash to.

I know some of you that have this problem, probably don't have a lot of cash and it was hard enough to scrap the pennies together to get the amp and you simply can't just go and buy another amp. I feel for you guys more than the rest and I think that this is were Fender needs to focus it's CS energy. Players that may just be coming into the industry and have many many years of purchasing ahead of them, will not soon forget the poor after sales service they recieve and this is were Fender will be punished. Not in todays sales, but future sales.

Come on Fender, for the amount of profit a company like yours makes and the amazing credability you have built over many years through the respect that older players like myself have for legends such as Leo that did so much for musicians. Do you really want to throw this away, just because you have to recall a small percetage of amps and fix a problem, or are you that arrogant that you seriously believe consumers will just forget.

Don't get me wrong Fender, I am not saying that this is a widespread problem or that it may not be issues at an individual level, say dirty power, combination of effects pedals or whatever. The point is, it would not put you out too much, to have a look at some these amps to determine were the problem actually lies and put a fix in place, if you have not already done this for future runs of the product (hopefully the one on the way for me). If it is ultimately found that the fault is not with the amp itself, then I would be the first to get on this forum and congratulate you for your service and follow through and you could be rest assured that along with my current stable of Fender gear, Hotrod Deluxe, Mustang IV, 91 USA Strat, 2009 HSS Strat and many other acc's, I will continue to buy Fender and be proud of it.

The power is always with the consumer.
8beggars


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