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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII - Update!
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:26 pm
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Hi, all.

Has anyone tried to turn their MII into an open-back combo? Is it harder on the power amp and make it clip sooner? Did the bass response suffer or did you gain some bass?
I've PM'd Loren about this but no response yet. Thanks in advance.

O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:26 am
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http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread ... st10238050


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:39 am
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Thanks, PB! I think it's worth a try. I wish he'd been a bit more descriptive of the difference in sound. I would have asked him but I really don't want to sign up for another forum. :roll: Thanks again.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:19 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
Hi, all.

Has anyone tried to turn their MII into an open-back combo? Is it harder on the power amp and make it clip sooner?


You can't get enough modeled clipping from the amp the way it is? What exactly is it that you find missing from the sounds you can already get and why do you think having the power amp clip will get that for you?


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:22 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
Orcatraz wrote:
Hi, all.

Has anyone tried to turn their MII into an open-back combo? Is it harder on the power amp and make it clip sooner?


You can't get enough modeled clipping from the amp the way it is? What exactly is it that you find missing from the sounds you can already get and why do you think having the power amp clip will get that for you?


You misunderstand. I don't want the power amp to clip at all. Cabinet design can drastically change a speaker's efficiency and frequency response - some more than others. If turning the MII into an open-back combo causes the stock speaker to lose low end, you'll end up boosting the low end EQ and causing the power amp to work harder. At higher volumes this can become a problem and I want to avoid that.
One solution is of course to get a more efficient speaker so that the power amp doesn't have to work as hard BUT, finding the right speaker that correctly compensates for the frequency response changes will be difficult to say the least. Also, not knowing what the efficiency rating is on the stock speaker doesn't help. I like the idea of an open back combo because they are less directional than closed-back combos but I'd really rather not have to severely re-tweak my presets (but I'll probably have to). Nor do I want the amp to have to work harder. Of course, if turning it into an open-back combo increases the low end, then this is a non-issue. Being able to turn down the Bass knob always helps the power amp be more efficient and gives it more headroom.

Some speakers are specifically designed for closed-back cabs and consequently sound terrible in open-back cabs. Because of the price point of the Mustang and considering how loud it can actually get, I won't be surprised to find this to be the case with its speaker.

Meh, I guess I'll just have to try it and see what happens.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:57 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
johnjaypl wrote:
Orcatraz wrote:
Hi, all.

Has anyone tried to turn their MII into an open-back combo? Is it harder on the power amp and make it clip sooner?


You can't get enough modeled clipping from the amp the way it is? What exactly is it that you find missing from the sounds you can already get and why do you think having the power amp clip will get that for you?


You misunderstand. I don't want the power amp to clip at all. Cabinet design can drastically change a speaker's efficiency and frequency response - some more than others. If turning the MII into an open-back combo causes the stock speaker to lose low end, you'll end up boosting the low end EQ and causing the power amp to work harder. At higher volumes this can become a problem and I want to avoid that.
One solution is of course to get a more efficient speaker so that the power amp doesn't have to work as hard BUT, finding the right speaker that correctly compensates for the frequency response changes will be difficult to say the least. Also, not knowing what the efficiency rating is on the stock speaker doesn't help. I like the idea of an open back combo because they are less directional than closed-back combos but I'd really rather not have to severely re-tweak my presets (but I'll probably have to). Nor do I want the amp to have to work harder. Of course, if turning it into an open-back combo increases the low end, then this is a non-issue. Being able to turn down the Bass knob always helps the power amp be more efficient and gives it more headroom.

Some speakers are specifically designed for closed-back cabs and consequently sound terrible in open-back cabs. Because of the price point of the Mustang and considering how loud it can actually get, I won't be surprised to find this to be the case with its speaker.

Meh, I guess I'll just have to try it and see what happens.

O.


ahhhh. Thanks for explaining what you were going for.

John


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:04 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
Thanks, PB! I think it's worth a try. I wish he'd been a bit more descriptive of the difference in sound. I would have asked him but I really don't want to sign up for another forum. :roll: Thanks again.

O.
Yeah. I was curious myself so i PM'd him. I will let you know if i get a reply. I want a II since i have no amp right now and who knows how long til the III is fixed.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:24 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
"Yeah. I was curious myself so i PM'd him. I will let you know if i get a reply. I want a II since i have no amp right now and who knows how long til the III is fixed.


Thanks, PB.
You know, the weird thing is that I kinda have a hankering to get an M1 again. There was something about that little critter that I really like. I also keep thinking that it'd be a great little amp to pull apart and stick it's guts into something a little classier... maybe even steampunk it - put it in an old radio and give it a bigger speaker!

O.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:06 pm
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From my experience with other amps, I try for 3/4 open and see what I get. Usually it brightens (thins ) the sound. This can be good or bad depending on what you want.
It may also drop the perceived volume.
I liked it on a Marshal closed back I had that was too muddy, but found the character of the speaker was really not what I wanted open or closed as the amount of brightness it added did not make up for the lack of clarity. Not worth buying a different speaker.
I like to keep my perspective on total cost and not mod stuff that adds up to as much as buying a better product.
My .02
So just experiment....... :)


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:42 pm
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Here is his reply:
Quote:
Never played a III but I put a tone tubby alnico in my II and it's great. More clarity than HD500 with QSC K12.


The I and II have me interested too just because they are so small. I'm guessing there will be custom solid wood replacement cabs available in the next year like some private builders have done with the Super Champ XD and Blues Junior. At that point you could buy the I for $99, a cab for $150, and stick a 12" speaker in it.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:53 am
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Well, guess what you guys. I went ahead and did it and I really like it!
The sound has gotten a lot more spacious and big sounding and didn't seem to lose any bass. I'm also considering replacing the stock speaker with a Jensen Jet Falcon - the clips sound really cool to me. I'm going to wait though 'cause I'm really loving it now.

I was a bit concerned about the electronics inside and how unprotected they now are so I hot glued a little "shelf" on the top cover just above the speaker's frame to try to protect them a bit. I think I might get a steel grate cut to fit in there to try and extend that protection a bit more. Having an open back also allows for quite a bit more airflow to the heatsink and that's never bad.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:35 pm
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I love it when I am right! :wink:

Enjoy, how uncovered is it in say % open?


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:15 pm
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Pistol wrote:
I love it when I am right! :wink:

Enjoy, how uncovered is it in say % open?


I'd say it's something like a little over 35% open. What I found interesting was the sound when I put the old back cover behind the amp and angled up slightly. It made the sound more "present" - makes sense that it would do that. Just to see the difference, I leaned the old cover up against the back and I'd never realized just how "pinched" it sounds as a closed cab. It sounds soooo much better as an open cab. I'd be willing to bet that the M1 would also improve if its back were removed. Actually, I'd love to hear an M1 driving an open back 212 8 ohm cab.

The only reason I can come up with as to why Fender would use a closed back design on these amps is cost. They'd have to have a metal chassis that fully encloses the electronics to protect them and I'm sure that costs more. This mod does expose the guts to some potential damage so I'll have to come up with some way to protect them with more than just that little "shelf" I put in. Either that or never use the back as a storage bin for cables and pedals like you would on a normally open back combo.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:03 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
The only reason I can come up with as to why Fender would use a closed back design on these amps is cost.
I'm sure that is part of it. I'm guessing the other part is to increase bass in such a small enclosure.

When will you post clips? I see lots of modding talk here and there but barely ever see clips showing the result.


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Post subject: Re: Open-Back cab mod for MII?
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:19 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
When will you post clips? I see lots of modding talk here and there but barely ever see clips showing the result.


Well, I'd thought about that but I'm not sure you'd hear the difference in a clip. The effect is largely a psycho-acoustic one and it would require some fairly precise stereo (maybe even Binaural) recording techniques to really capture the effect. Then there's the mp3 compression that will likely put a monkey wrench on the final output. One thing's for sure, I did not lose any low end after opening it up. It's just a bigger, more open sound that I'm getting.

O.


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