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Post subject: New Amps???
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:08 pm
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Has any thought been given to having new amp models available for uploading? I know that the high gain amps are very popular but there are some others that might be nice to have.
For the Mustang 4 and 5, since they are true stereo amps, a Roland JC120 might be a perfect fit.
Also, the Acoustic amps form the late 60's had a distinct sound and were used by everyone (see Santana at Woodstock).
I'd like to see a couple of classic Solid State amp models such as the Kustom tuck and rolls, the big Peaveys, Gibson Lab 5.

Not every player needs 4 high gain amps, a nice clean jazz amp model would be a nice alternative


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:50 pm
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Because memory/processing of digital amps is limited, where some companies have gone wrong in my view is to keep adding more & more amp models but with the tonal quality and other features suffering. I'd prefer a smaller number of amp models but with top-notch state of the art modeling (something Line 6 has tried to do with the Pod HD500)

I'd much prefer an amp system that let's you pick & choose which amps you want to load into the amp. It may come with a basic package of classic models but with the processing/memory capability to accept say up to another 12 models, or 6 models plus 6 customised stomp effects. So, if you're not interested in Metal, you might prefer to load your amp with more classic models, a metal player would go for a 'metal add-on pack', those wanting acoustic/solid-state amp models could load some of these, and a stompbox junkie could add an extra stomp box selection. And if your needs/tastes change you could swap.

The Valvetronix+ has 33 models, and the new VTX150 Valvetronix will have 44. But most people will never use all the models in a modeling amp - so why clog up memory/processing power with stuff you don't want? Far better in my view to have at any given time what you want but with better quality. Line 6 used this idea and sold 'metal' or 'classic' packs etc. Fender could sell option amp/FX packs on top of a basic package that comes with the amp - or provide these free for load down.

What would be good though is that instead of modeling a single channel which is what most everyone else does, that Fender models all of an amps channels & features eg bright & normal channels of a Marshall Plexi & allow channel mixing, bright switches on Fender amps etc.

Some amps I'd like to see modeled are:

Marshall JTM45 'Bluesbreaker'
Dumble overdrive special
Roland JC120 (as mentioned)
Matchless DC30
Soldano SHO

Rich

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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:54 pm
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Yes! I love the idea of custom loading your own mix of amp models..... Take your pick of your favorite 12 amps. I also like the idea of offering both "Clean" and "Dirty" channels of many of the famous amps. I would LOVE to have a model of a Mesa Dual Rectifier.... Or a Soldano SHO, and would gladly give up one or two of the other amp models of my choice to get them.

Great suggestion, Rockcat!

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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:13 am
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Problem is, all these amp models are rough estimates of the target amps, some much more accurate than others. Once you start adding "Dumbles" and "Trainwrecks" and "Magnatones" and "Buddhas" and "Sunns" etc etc. they all start to run together like sonic mush. They just start being nothing but vague-sounding names instead of distinctive, useful tone tools and starting places for tweaking your own unique sound.


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:25 am
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
Problem is, all these amp models are rough estimates of the target amps, some much more accurate than others. Once you start adding "Dumbles" and "Trainwrecks" and "Magnatones" and "Buddhas" and "Sunns" etc etc. they all start to run together like sonic mush. They just start being nothing but vague-sounding names instead of distinctive, useful tone tools and starting places for tweaking your own unique sound.


That's EXACTLY my point!! - processor power is currently being wasted on lots of 'so-so' tones you don't need. The concept depends on - as I clearly stated - that the modeling HAS to be TOP QUALITY. Arguably the best modeling around currently is the POD HD500 and Axe-FX units. So Fender would have to substantially gear up its modeling algorithms and processing power to adopt this approach.

I would far rather be able to pick & choose 12 top quality amp models and 12 top quality effects that I really want, than have 44 'vague-sounding' tones with 25 average effects.

So, if you're looking in Fender - how about it? Maybe bring out a 'Mustang Pro' that adopts this approach, and has extn cab and line-outs to go to a desk/PA (as I raised in another thread).

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:13 am
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Rockcat wrote:
[...] processor power is currently being wasted on lots of 'so-so' tones you don't need. [...]


I am thinking that having more models simply means more space occupied in firmware or on a flash drive or whatever.

The processing horsepower is consumed only when a model actually runs, and the "quantity" of processing only depends on how complicated the model is (how much it actually processes the signal).

So, if there is enough processing power to handle running the "most complicated" model (+ effects), then there is no loss/degradation induced by having more choices (except for the space consumed by the code, and possibly the confusion when they start sounding too much alike).

PITA


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:16 am
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PITA is spot-on with this one. None of the DSP is wasted by having more models, just data memory space and that's cheap these days.

However, Rockcat's idea of a Mustang Pro is something I've been hoping for too. I think these amps could be the first of a new breed of high end, high performance modeling amplifiers with features designed for working pros. They should be made with better materials overall, and use Class D amplification with Digital Switching power supplies to keep the weight down. They could take over where Lab Series left off... if anyone remembers those... I'm showing my age... :roll:

I like the idea of a la carte model choices but Rockcat, I would say that this particular statement needs qualifying -
Quote:
Arguably the best modeling around currently is the POD HD500 and Axe-FX units.
.
I've not played through an Axe-FX so I won't speak to that but the Pod HD 500 may be better at the high gain models, but they can't hold a candle to the Mustang when it comes to the feel of low and mid gain amp models. The tone is there in the Pods (albeit not as chimey as the Mustangs) but Line6 seems to have no idea of what Fender amps and other lower gain amps are supposed to feel like. The pods feel extremely static and very abrupt in their breakup characteristics - not to mention fizzy.

O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:35 pm
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I've fooled a lot of people thinking i played a real vintage tube amp while playing the Mustang but the line6 will allways keep that distinct line6 (modeling)sound which gives it away.


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:26 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
the Pod HD 500 may be better at the high gain models, but they can't hold a candle to the Mustang when it comes to the feel of low and mid gain amp models. The tone is there in the Pods (albeit not as chimey as the Mustangs) but Line6 seems to have no idea of what Fender amps and other lower gain amps are supposed to feel like. The pods feel extremely static and very abrupt in their breakup characteristics - not to mention fizzy.

O.


Yep. I can afford either the axefx or the HD500 and don't want either one. I like the Mustangs.


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:54 pm
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People may or may not like it but here's a clip from a recent concert.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10787333
Only the Mustang has been able to get this sound at a reasonable and controlled volume level. While it may be an attainable sound on a low wattage tube amp, what are you supposed to do when you need a good clean sound that's loud enough to be heard? Most of those amps aren't very practical at being able to produce both clean and dirty sounds equally well. There's always some kind of annoying compromise. Not so with the Mustang. Line6's compression and EQ algorithms simply don't allow this type of a sound... for better or worse.


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:42 pm
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The clip (nice playing btw) demonstrates exactly what i mean:
The guitar sound breathes, as with line6 it would have sounded like a vacuum cleaner put on and off from time to time. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:45 pm
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Thanks, Henky! :D
Quote:
with line6 it would have sounded like a vacuum cleaner put on and off from time to time. :lol:

That's funny!


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:22 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
People may or may not like it but here's a clip from a recent concert.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10787333
Only the Mustang has been able to get this sound at a reasonable and controlled volume level. While it may be an attainable sound on a low wattage tube amp, what are you supposed to do when you need a good clean sound that's loud enough to be heard? Most of those amps aren't very practical at being able to produce both clean and dirty sounds equally well. There's always some kind of annoying compromise. Not so with the Mustang. Line6's compression and EQ algorithms simply don't allow this type of a sound... for better or worse.


Great sound, Orcatraz, What are the parameters on your preset. I like the bite you are getting from it. Sounds like a strat in Neck, and Mid/Bridge at times?

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1976 Alvarez Acoustic w/fishbine pickup; '98 American Series Strat (custom rewired); Modded Gibson Les Paul.
Mustang III; Crate v33 2-12; Raven G20; Digitech RP-2000; Morley Bad Horsie 2; various Danelectric stomps ...


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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:37 pm
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Great clip Orcatraz. For what it's worth guys, I like the Mustang tone too & I'm not a fan of Line 6 tone generally. But I've heard some very nice recorded clips with HD500 & Axe-FX and both are using much more complex algorithms.

The Mustang modeling sounds very much like that in my Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX - and that's a real complement, because the Vox uses valves! :wink:

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Post subject: Re: New Amps???
Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:13 pm
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nm9p wrote:
Great sound, Orcatraz, What are the parameters on your preset. I like the bite you are getting from it. Sounds like a strat in Neck, and Mid/Bridge at times?


Thanks, nm9p and Rockcat.

I think... I'll have to look and make sure (I'll post a correction if I'm wrong) but I think I'm using the '59 Bassman through the SuperSonic 112 cab, Overdrive in the Post setting and Sag in the middle position. Yeah, there's bite but it's not buzzy and brittle and the sustain... aaaaahhhh... no, wait that's Spinal Tap. :lol: But really, the sustain and GOOD feedback is just nuts and I swear I've never been able to get this sound from any device, amp or modeler before. Glad you guys like it. Oh and yes, it's the neck pickup on my custom strat with really cheap Fender Tex-Mex pickups ($70.00!).

O.


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