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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:53 am
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I'm sorry to get everybody all worked up. I used the word "speculation" in the context of a normal player using a normal guitar on a normal amp setting playing a normal song. As far as I know, there is no publicly available example of the artifact normal listeners can use to judge for themselves whether or not there is really a significant problem with these amplifiers. Based on thread length and alleged outrage alone, there should be at least one example of a song?

Yes, there is a single note artifact - no speculation there. I think we can all agree that this amp isn't the right one for players who use lots of long drawn out single notes on the low E string.

But what about guitarists who play songs rather than notes? Guitarists who use all of the strings with things like half notes and quarter notes? Are these amps suitable for those types of guitarists?

Discuss....


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:29 am
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Well... I've been following this thread for a long while.

I've been strugling to decide what amp I should get and to be honest, the Mustang III had pretty much what I wanted. I haven't bought it yet cause I wanted to wait for the NAMM to see what new toys would get released.

Well... the case that brings me here is that I've seen a lot of discusion about the fizz problem. But the only proof of this matter is the sample on the first page and your word about that is unplayable once it develops. I believe you and I believe that for the Jazz guys and clean players is a real issue but, if by any means, I could get a sample of someone playing a real song it would be the feedback im looking for and help me decide if the amp is worth for me or not (and my other option got a lot less features and is more expensive).

My play style ranges from clasic metal to clean and crunchy blues tones (to be honest, im still a beginner, but I've got ambition :P) although the cleans are not as important to me.

Thanks in advance for any help :)

edit: so far I've found several clean examples on youtube that do not fizz, but none that have that dreaded thing...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:42 am
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icedfiend wrote:
I've been strugling to decide what amp I should get and to be honest, the Mustang III had pretty much what I wanted. I haven't bought it yet cause I wanted to wait for the NAMM to see what new toys would get released.

My play style ranges from clasic metal to clean and crunchy blues tones (to be honest, im still a beginner, but I've got ambition :P) although the cleans are not as important to me.


You should just get it. There is no perfect amp. The fizz won't be a factor in the music you like to play, and it's a great beginner's amp.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:43 pm
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@icedfiend:
If you're playing with a drummer now the cymbals and snare will probably mean amp fizz won't be a big issue for you and the 4-button foot switch will be very nice to have. But if you're playing at home, a Mustang II is plenty loud and has no issues. I like mine a lot and think it's probably loud enough for my last band (blues/funk with a horn section) at least for our practice room. I'd mic it for gigs. When you need more volume to practice with a loud drummer, get the more powerful amp and you'll have the II as your backup.

The III is easier to tweak, but now that I'm used to the II I don't miss the display that much. I miss the 4-button foot switch more.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:26 pm
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Stunning musical naivete. So you agree that the amp is suitable only for those guitarists playing half and quarter notes, but not whole notes? Really? Listen to any version of Capricho Arabe by Tarrega and imagine the introductory open D with fizz. I tried it. Sounds bad. And although fizz is most often detected and demonstrated on the E string (because of the nature of overtone series), in fact it affects all tones on all strings, with discordant overtone envelopes occurring at progressively higher frequencies and rates. As a certified piano tuner and undergrad physics major, I've studied these things.

Anyway, what a badly fizzing amp sounds like with half notes and up on all strings is mud. While you can't necessarily pick up specific fizz tones on uptempo sections, the harmonic envelope interferes with the normal interplay of clean tone harmonics and noticeably reduces clarity and definition even when notes are played too quickly to tease apart individual harmonic envelopes.

On a badly fizzing amp (and fizz does vary, even on a single amp from day to day, which again implicates cheap and inconsistent components), this is noticed by untrained listeners as a cloudy distorted presentation even when the signature envelope is obscured by primary tones.

Fender knows this. That's why one of their internal tech reps confirmed to me that Fender does in fact understand that the MIII may not be especially suitable for clean acoustic / clean jazz applications. Fender acknowledges it. Why won't you?

Now if you don't hear or don't care about these tones, by all means, rock on. But recognize that some of us are, yes, more discerning. It's unfortunate that Fender isn't more concerned about their "discerning" customers.
emcron wrote:
But what about guitarists who play songs rather than notes? Guitarists who use all of the strings with things like half notes and quarter notes? Are these amps suitable for those types of guitarists?

Discuss....


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:31 pm
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@brucefulton

+1

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:20 pm
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Bruce, man, that's a lot of fancy posting you did there. I'm not positive, but I think you used the word 'harmonic' three times in one sentence. I'm very impressed, but I would rather hear it myself than take your word for it. Please don't be angry.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:29 pm
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emcron wrote:
But what about guitarists who play songs rather than notes? Guitarists who use all of the strings with things like half notes and quarter notes? Are these amps suitable for those types of guitarists?

Discuss....


No, not suitable, according to Fender among others. Not if the guitarists like clean tones, and especially not if they play in quieter environments, and not even for those who like distortion without strange, unwanted added artifacts.

brucefulton is right.

emcron, I suspect you only hear what you want to hear. If you can get psyched about playing through an amp that sounds like the one at the top of this long thread, then I'm not surprised that "harmonic" isn't in your normal vocabulary.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:02 pm
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A while back I also opted that someone make a recording of a bad fizzing amp and post it on youtube. That and complaining about it on a lot of different forums is probably the only way to get Fenders attention. I don't doubt the Mustang fizzes. Mine does too and I could easily replicate those clips posted at the beginning of this thread, but I hardly notice it when I play clean.

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.
There's just too much gray area at the moment and little hard evidence that the amp is unusable for certain styles of playing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:24 pm
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Hmm, so if your amp fizzes, why don't you post a clip of your amp fizzing, to prove it does, and then post a clip of a clean song -- and I mean clean -- to prove your point? Works both ways. I'm thinking your handle pretty much says it all, but prove me wrong.

Emcron, if harmonic isn't in your vocabulary, you should probably check out of this thread.

kidrock wrote:
A while back I also opted that someone make a recording of a bad fizzing amp and post it on youtube. That and complaining about it on a lot of different forums is probably the only way to get Fenders attention. I don't doubt the Mustang fizzes. Mine does too and I could easily replicate those clips posted at the beginning of this thread, but I hardly notice it when I play clean.

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.
There's just too much gray area at the moment and little hard evidence that the amp is unusable for certain styles of playing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:42 pm
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I frankly don't care whether you hear it or not. The trailing harmonic envelope is what characterizes fizz -- you can't talk about fizz without talking about harmonics. It's all about the harmonics, harmonics, harmonics and harmonics. There, I used it FOUR times in one sentence. Fender hears it and have stated such. If you like the amp, keep it. Mine is long gone, so I'm unable to accommodate any requests for proof that what I hear is what Fender has admitted is a problem.

emcron wrote:
Bruce, man, that's a lot of fancy posting you did there. I'm not positive, but I think you used the word 'harmonic' three times in one sentence. I'm very impressed, but I would rather hear it myself than take your word for it. Please don't be angry.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:52 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
Hmm, so if your amp fizzes, why don't you post a clip of your amp fizzing, to prove it does, and then post a clip of a clean song -- and I mean clean -- to prove your point? Works both ways. I'm thinking your handle pretty much says it all, but prove me wrong.

Emcron, if harmonic isn't in your vocabulary, you should probably check out of this thread.

kidrock wrote:
A while back I also opted that someone make a recording of a bad fizzing amp and post it on youtube. That and complaining about it on a lot of different forums is probably the only way to get Fenders attention. I don't doubt the Mustang fizzes. Mine does too and I could easily replicate those clips posted at the beginning of this thread, but I hardly notice it when I play clean.

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.
There's just too much gray area at the moment and little hard evidence that the amp is unusable for certain styles of playing.


Of course I could, but would it help this thread? I don't think so, unless you wanna hear those same long drawn out notes those other clips had.

And by the way... my handle has nothing to do with it. I admit I play in a rock band, but that's not all I play. One of the selling points for me was getting an amp that had great clean tones and the Mustang pretty much nailed the Fender clean tones that I love at a bargain price to boot.

If nobody want to make a recording of their horrible fizzing amp, that fine by me. I'm not the one complaining.

Carry on....


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:13 pm
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Yes, please do, since you are demanding the same. A clip demonstrating a significantly fizzing amp, and a short clip of a clean song that you think demonstrates fizz is inaudible with the same settings recorded at the same time.
kidrock wrote:
Of course I could, but would it help this thread?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:46 pm
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So, how about you play Capricho Arabe on a demonstrably fizzing amp and prove me wrong?

kidrock wrote:
A

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:58 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
So, how about you play Capricho Arabe on a demonstrably fizzing amp and prove me wrong?

kidrock wrote:
A

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.


Which part of my previous post didn't you get?

The part that I wrote that it's fine by me if nobody records their horrible fizzing amp, or the carry on part?


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