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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:42 am
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Aspiring Musician
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@Rockcat – A couple of people have indicated that they may not be entirely appreciative of your efforts to find real answers. I get why that would turn you off. But please don’t generalize the rest of the hundreds if not thousands of people following this issue based on the frustrations expressed by a couple of posters.

I for one am genuinely interested in any information you get from Fender. And I think if you want to make a fair generalization, you’d have to agree that most of the people following this thread would also be interested to hear anything a Fender rep has to say on the matter. The rest of us appreciate what you’re trying to do even if we don’t post and say so. Please don’t shut out the rest of us just to prove a point.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:33 pm
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I honestly wasn't trying to prove any point, & I really do appreciate your post. I'm still happy to share any progress I make.

Best

Rich :wink:

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"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:51 pm
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OK, Matt Davey (Fender UK) referred me to the same 'official statement':

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

I've responded that this is frankly just big-company 'jive' and isn't an answer, and that I'm disappointed that neither Alan Wiley nor Loren Howard have come back to me from Fenders Technical team in the US.

However, I've expressed to Matt that I realise that the Fender Tech guys may be in a difficult position. So, if they are all blocked from saying anything further due to the powers that be at Fender, I've formally requested that this matter be referred to the top and that means the main Fender board, for a full answer as to why the fizz is there.

I'll keep you all posted.

Best

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:58 pm
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When I spoke to fender, they didn't want to admit that fizz is not present in new mustang IIIs and that it develops over time. I had read about fizz, and assumed that if it were an inherent defect, I would be able to detect it on a new amp and accept or reject it. I also assumed that if it was not present on receipt and developed over time that it would fall under the warranty. However in my case and apparently many more, fizz did not appear for some time, which indicates that there is a component issue that degrades over time. But my conversation with the Fender tech is that Fender's position is that I just must not have heard it. And regardless, that fizz which develops over time is within engineering spec and not warranted.

Oh, please. I'm a former registered piano tuner-technician, have a music degree in guitar performance, and have 20 years experience as a professional musician. I carefully evaluated harmonic components and tone quality on receipt. I invite any of the techs I talked to for an overtone and envelope detection smack-down. Even the manager at the local warranty service station was visibly disconcerted at the bizarre envelope when I brought it to his attention.

This is unacceptable and appalling from a consumer relations viewpoint. It is clear to me that some mustangs do not fizz on initial receipt that later fizz. This indicates a warranty issue. Fender's position is that the degradation is within specs. My position is that if I buy something and it goes to ***, it's warranty. Fender seems to argue that fizz is like tire tread, and that the warranty doesn't apply after even as few as 31 days after receipt, not coincidentally associating with most of their retailers' return period.

Meh. And shameful.

I'm grateful it occurred soon enough so that my vendor agreed to a refund, after a lot of argumentation, no thanks to Fender tech support, minus shipping costs both ways. So I'm out just about $100 on an amp that was fine on arrival and went to crap after a month. So much for Fenders 5 year "warranty."

I really would like someone to step up and refund the $100 bucks I'm out on this deal.

Fender?



Rockcat wrote:
OK, Matt Davey (Fender UK) referred me to the same 'official statement':

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

I've responded that this is frankly just big-company 'jive' and isn't an answer, and that I'm disappointed that neither Alan Wiley nor Loren Howard have come back to me from Fenders Technical team in the US.

However, I've expressed to Matt that I realise that the Fender Tech guys may be in a difficult position. So, if they are all blocked from saying anything further due to the powers that be at Fender, I've formally requested that this matter be referred to the top and that means the main Fender board, for a full answer as to why the fizz is there.

I'll keep you all posted.

Best

Rich :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:22 pm
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Roadie
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I truly doubt Fender will comment on this issue during the Christmas shopping season. That would do nothing but kill sales, and if there is a fix in the works or a second generation of Mustang coming out, Fender will want to move out as much of the older Mustang inventory as possible right now.

My prediction is that a "Mustang Pro" with an external speaker jack and a fizz fix will be announced at winter Namm in January. How that will affect us "involuntary beta-testers" is anyone's guess.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:57 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Fender should offer some options here for all the owners of the mustang III-V,they could for example tell us what part is at fault and give us a choice to fix it our selfs(voiding the warranty) or maybe 100.00 rebate for a new mustang version that is fizz free,fender could also choose to fix this problem under there 5 warranty and stop telling us this problem is within spec.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:45 pm
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:13 am
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Fender said this problem is in spec. But there is no mention of this issue in manual of Mustangs Amps. And no seller would tell the client about this issue.

So, even if the problem is provided in the specifications, the consumer should be alerted about it?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:21 pm
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:38 am
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The Humanity!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:18 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:36 pm
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Fender offered to swap out my mustang III with a champ HD. But that was not acceptable to me. The champ is a practice/recording amp at 15 tube watts and is not suitable for gigging, compared to the mustang's 100w/12 celestion combo.

They offered it because the Champ is about the same price and because I had bothered to submit a formal written complaint. But it is not an equivalent amp. I visited a local dealer and was not impressed with it for my purposes, compared to what the Mustang would provide absent fizz. It clipped at much lower volumes than the Mustang, and I'm sure Fender knows the difference between desirable tube clip and totally bizarre digital signal processing fizz. I had other issues with the DSP on the Champ but didn't really need to go farther than the inequality of the swap for practical purposes.

The issue here is not tube vs. solid state. All other things being equal, solid state/digital should be cleaner than tube up to clipping signal levels. Tube sounds excel at clipping within the amp's available overhead, but if the mustang is a true modeling amp, it should model clean unclipped as well as various clipping levels up to the inherent limitations of the power circuit. Fizz is a digital ghost that clearly is absent from the models Fender claims to provide with the Mustang series.

It seems to me that fender has taken "high speed, amped up and loud" and sacrificed the very sounds amps like the fender twin are famous for. No Fender twin I've ever heard fizzed. How can you say the mustang models the twin if the mustang fizzes on twin modeling sound? Enquiring minds want to know.

Fender will fix this or they will have to withdraw the line. I just don't get how Fender can argue, under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, that fizz, which often appears long after initial purchase, is a "design spec" and unwarrantable.

The only question is, will Fender do right by people who are basically screwed by this design flaw?

Metalman50 wrote:
Fender should offer some options here for all the owners of the mustang III-V,they could for example tell us what part is at fault and give us a choice to fix it our selfs(voiding the warranty) or maybe 100.00 rebate for a new mustang version that is fizz free,fender could also choose to fix this problem under there 5 warranty and stop telling us this problem is within spec.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:49 pm
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Roadie
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:03 am
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To all Mustang owners on the Fender forum. I have sent this e-mail to Fender UK & USA which (I hope) succinctly & politely lays out the position.

Quote:
Dear Matt, Alan, & Loren

As you are all well aware from the Fender forum, a great many customers with Mustang III/IV/&V amps are experiencing genuine problems with a fizzing sound affecting their amp either from outset, or after an initial period. The official statement from Fender is incomplete, somewhat vague and (arguably) somewhat 'dismissive', seeking to trivialise and minimise this issue. However, some 44 plus pages on the official Fender forum, plus similar problems reported on many other sites, lay testament to evidence that the issue is not trivial, it is genuine, and that it is significantly more widespread than Fender's response might suggest.

It appears (somewhat disappointingly) that no one from Fender seems to want to come back to its customers with some straight answers as to exactly why the problem is there. Logic suggests the issue is most probably due to one or more components in the amp, simply because if the problem were software, it's reasonable to assume that Fender would have identified this and issued a firmware upgrade 'fix'. If it is a component issue, and if the components are identified precisely, at least customers would have the option to upgrade these eliminating the fizzing, even if this meant voiding their Fender warranty.

It appears (very disappointingly) that (so far) no one from Fender seems to want to come back to its customers with some straight answers, and Fender is clearly trying to play this problem down instead of being completely open to its customers.

This issue would therefore seem best referred directly to Larry Thomas, CEO of Fender in the US (Scotsdale).

I have Fender's HO as: 8860 East Chaparral Road #100 Scottsdale, AZ 85250, United States

E-mail is of course simpler and quicker. I'd therefore be most grateful if you would please provide me with an e-mail address for his office, when I can then request that this issue be investigated at board level.

Kind regards


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:07 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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An eminently reasonable approach that certainly deserves a proper, considered and open response.

I have apparently caused offense by sounding 'defeatist' on this issue here before, so I can only wish you well in your genuine efforts to make some progress on this.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:01 am
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Thanks Depepat - it's like walking through treacle. I have a response from Matt Davey which is still vague & non-commital. I'll draft a response & I'll post both tonight.

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"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:32 am
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Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:45 am
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Rockcat wrote:
To all Mustang owners on the Fender forum. I have sent this e-mail to Fender UK & USA which (I hope) succinctly & politely lays out the position.

Quote:
Dear Matt, Alan, & Loren

As you are all well aware from the Fender forum, a great many customers with Mustang III/IV/&V amps are experiencing genuine problems with a fizzing sound affecting their amp either from outset, or after an initial period. The official statement from Fender is incomplete, somewhat vague and (arguably) somewhat 'dismissive', seeking to trivialise and minimise this issue. However, some 44 plus pages on the official Fender forum, plus similar problems reported on many other sites, lay testament to evidence that the issue is not trivial, it is genuine, and that it is significantly more widespread than Fender's response might suggest.

It appears (somewhat disappointingly) that no one from Fender seems to want to come back to its customers with some straight answers as to exactly why the problem is there. Logic suggests the issue is most probably due to one or more components in the amp, simply because if the problem were software, it's reasonable to assume that Fender would have identified this and issued a firmware upgrade 'fix'. If it is a component issue, and if the components are identified precisely, at least customers would have the option to upgrade these eliminating the fizzing, even if this meant voiding their Fender warranty.

It appears (very disappointingly) that (so far) no one from Fender seems to want to come back to its customers with some straight answers, and Fender is clearly trying to play this problem down instead of being completely open to its customers.

This issue would therefore seem best referred directly to Larry Thomas, CEO of Fender in the US (Scotsdale).

I have Fender's HO as: 8860 East Chaparral Road #100 Scottsdale, AZ 85250, United States

E-mail is of course simpler and quicker. I'd therefore be most grateful if you would please provide me with an e-mail address for his office, when I can then request that this issue be investigated at board level.

Kind regards



Good for you Rich ... +1,000,000!

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:59 pm
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:25 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
Fender offered to swap out my mustang III with a champ HD. But that was not acceptable to me. The champ is a practice/recording amp at 15 tube watts and is not suitable for gigging, compared to the mustang's 100w/12 celestion combo.

They offered it because the Champ is about the same price and because I had bothered to submit a formal written complaint. But it is not an equivalent amp. I visited a local dealer and was not impressed with it for my purposes, compared to what the Mustang would provide absent fizz. It clipped at much lower volumes than the Mustang, and I'm sure Fender knows the difference between desirable tube clip and totally bizarre digital signal processing fizz. I had other issues with the DSP on the Champ but didn't really need to go farther than the inequality of the swap for practical purposes.

The issue here is not tube vs. solid state. All other things being equal, solid state/digital should be cleaner than tube up to clipping signal levels. Tube sounds excel at clipping within the amp's available overhead, but if the mustang is a true modeling amp, it should model clean unclipped as well as various clipping levels up to the inherent limitations of the power circuit. Fizz is a digital ghost that clearly is absent from the models Fender claims to provide with the Mustang series.

It seems to me that fender has taken "high speed, amped up and loud" and sacrificed the very sounds amps like the fender twin are famous for. No Fender twin I've ever heard fizzed. How can you say the mustang models the twin if the mustang fizzes on twin modeling sound? Enquiring minds want to know.

Fender will fix this or they will have to withdraw the line. I just don't get how Fender can argue, under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, that fizz, which often appears long after initial purchase, is a "design spec" and unwarrantable.

The only question is, will Fender do right by people who are basically screwed by this design flaw?

Metalman50 wrote:
Fender should offer some options here for all the owners of the mustang III-V,they could for example tell us what part is at fault and give us a choice to fix it our selfs(voiding the warranty) or maybe 100.00 rebate for a new mustang version that is fizz free,fender could also choose to fix this problem under there 5 warranty and stop telling us this problem is within spec.


You might have alternative choices in a swap with Fender. I returned a $1,200 MSRP mandolin for a refinish under the lifetime warranty that was originally offered by Tacoma (later bought out by Fender). After 6 months and the promised return date looming, I received a call from Fender telling me that they were closing the shop in TN where the refinish was still awaiting a tech to begin the work.

Since Fender didn't make a comparable mandolin for a replacement, my original options included return of the Tacoma with monetary compensation for a refinish somewhere else or applying the value of my mandolin toward any other Fender product. I close to do a straight swap for a Princeton 65 Reissue.

Based upon this example, one would think that you should not be locked into a swap for a Champ. You might counter with credit for your purchase price toward any other Fender product. It worked for me.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:40 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 406
I am not having the fizz problem yet with my mustang V and i do not want to swap it for any other fender product for now but i will wait for a response from Rockcat or see if fender responds to his post about this problem.


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