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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:52 pm
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I returned it today and got a II instead. 40W is enough for me for practicing at home and for gigs (for larger gigs, I always have the option of miking the amp and going to the sound system)

I having an absolute blast with the Mustang II. Once you plug the Fuse software, the thing just totally comes alive. I am afraid my tube amp will be gathering dust :wink:

Unfortunate for the III. I doubt this will get fixed until Fender comes out with the second generation of Mustangs. The logistic are too complex.

In the meantime, GC is selling Mustang Is like hot cakes - there are piles of them all over the store :!: I would say this is a success for Fender, in spite of a few glitches. And the modeling technology they came up with, along with the Fuse software concept, is IMHO revolutionary.

Now, they just need to fix the glitches...

If I decide to continue with the Mustangs as my main amps, I may wait until the second generation and then buy a larger one (IV?) and keep the II as a small 'grab and go' amp.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:37 am
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Hi everybody,

I have 2 questions:
- for those who are changing the Mustang2 by Mustang3: the celestion speaker in MIII reeeeeeeealy makes the difference?

- for those who still insist on MIII: you had try play a chord in the guitar and, while hold the chord, change the screen on LCD? Some they said that the fizz issue could be cause by LCD on MIII. If is true, then changing the content on the LCD could affect the fizzy noise. Please, someone do this test. Play a chord and, while you hold it, change the screen pressing some edit button. It's not necessary to change any parameter, just change the screen on LCD and note if the fizzy noise change too.

--
Walter


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:00 am
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patrickm wrote:
And the modeling technology they came up with, along with the Fuse software concept, is IMHO revolutionary.


Steady - I like the Mustangs, but neither the modeling or fuse is revolutionary (pretty yes, revolutionary, no). Line 6 had the USB upgradeability and software (originally 'Sound-Diver') with its Flextone II amps (I had a Flex II Plus rig back in 2000). And the 'underlying' Mustang modeling is very, very similar to the Vox modeling* in my AD120VTX albeit the EQ is set differently and it doesn't quite have the more valve-like response of the Valvetronix valve-reactor/vaccuum tube design (now, that WAS revolutionary) (*yes, even the Fender models - a lot of what you're hearing in the Mustang is as much about different EQ as different 'modeling'!) - I had an MIII on approval for 3 weeks and I compared these very closely.

The Mustangs are very competitively priced, sound good, are very nicely packaged, with some nice touches/refinements and a very good product at this price point certainly...but 'revolutionary'? Uh uh...'fraid not! :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:30 am
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waao wrote:
I'm really planning to buy one MIII, as soon as possible, but this "fizz" problem is making me change my mind.

The Fender already knows about this issue for some time (at least 6 months, so I could see by this topic), but the solution is taking too long to appear.

It's too bad.


After a go-around with local warranty service, Fender consumer service confirmed to me yesterday what a Fender tech told my local warranty center a few days previously -- that all the mustangs III and up demonstrate this artifact (fizz), or will, and that they consider this within spec. The service rep said they know where the artifact is occurring, but that it is nothing they can fix and they believe it is not a significant issue for the majority of people who use the modeling effects. He stated that it was within the engineering spec. He conceded that this may make the amp not well suited for acoustic/jazz players such as myself who are looking mostly for good clean sounds. He indicated a warranty swap would not solve the problem since a replacement unit would also demonstrate the artifact, or would develop it. He indicated this has been taken care of on the I and II, although when I visited the local warranty service center, we could detect the artifact on a II as well (although it may not have had the firmware patch). Needless to say, my III is on its way back to the vendor and I'll have to eat the shipping charges and restocking since it the amp did not begin demonstrating the artifact until after the initial return period had lapsed. Too bad, I really liked the design, specs and setup over other options.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:43 am
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Rockcat wrote:
patrickm wrote:
And the modeling technology they came up with, along with the Fuse software concept, is IMHO revolutionary.


Steady - I like the Mustangs, but neither the modeling or fuse is revolutionary (pretty yes, revolutionary, no). Line 6 had the USB upgradeability and software (originally 'Sound-Diver') with its Flextone II amps (I had a Flex II Plus rig back in 2000). And the 'underlying' Mustang modeling is very, very similar to the Vox modeling* in my AD120VTX albeit the EQ is set differently and it doesn't quite have the more valve-like response of the Valvetronix valve-reactor/vaccuum tube design (now, that WAS revolutionary) (*yes, even the Fender models - a lot of what you're hearing in the Mustang is as much about different EQ as different 'modeling'!) - I had an MIII on approval for 3 weeks and I compared these very closely.

The Mustangs are very competitively priced, sound good, are very nicely packaged, with some nice touches/refinements and a very good product at this price point certainly...but 'revolutionary'? Uh uh...'fraid not! :wink:


Your are right - 'revolutionary' was overstated. However, I think the modeling of the vintage Fender amps is very impressive, and the whole implementation (Mustang amp and Fuse software) is excellent. This is the first time I get really excited about a modeling amp (I am a tube snob in need of rehab). It is quite nice to get a very convincing Twin Reverb sound without the chiropractor bill :)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:21 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
waao wrote:
I'm really planning to buy one MIII, as soon as possible, but this "fizz" problem is making me change my mind.

The Fender already knows about this issue for some time (at least 6 months, so I could see by this topic), but the solution is taking too long to appear.

It's too bad.


After a go-around with local warranty service, Fender consumer service confirmed to me yesterday what a Fender tech told my local warranty center a few days previously -- that all the mustangs III and up demonstrate this artifact (fizz), or will, and that they consider this within spec. The service rep said they know where the artifact is occurring, but that it is nothing they can fix and they believe it is not a significant issue for the majority of people who use the modeling effects. He stated that it was within the engineering spec. He conceded that this may make the amp not well suited for acoustic/jazz players such as myself who are looking mostly for good clean sounds. He indicated a warranty swap would not solve the problem since a replacement unit would also demonstrate the artifact, or would develop it. He indicated this has been taken care of on the I and II, although when I visited the local warranty service center, we could detect the artifact on a II as well (although it may not have had the firmware patch). Needless to say, my III is on its way back to the vendor and I'll have to eat the shipping charges and restocking since it the amp did not begin demonstrating the artifact until after the initial return period had lapsed. Too bad, I really liked the design, specs and setup over other options.



Yeh, it's realy too bad. I think I wait for the second generation of Mustangs or, if is take too long, I'll buy the MII. I'm seeking for a gooood clean sound and this fizz turn the fender sounds into a $@!&.

--
Walter


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:31 pm
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Shame you guys are having so many problems with this. I had a Mustang III for 3 weeks (I'm UK) and it was perfect - no noise/humm/fizz whatsoever. Based on my experience, I think that the Mustangs represent arguably the best value for money out there at the moment, & the III is probably the best version package for the majority of people.

But for those of you who aren't happy with their Mustang, and are prepared to spend more for something that has even more versatility with great valve tone, I currently have the very latest Vox Valvetronix VTX150 Pro Neodymium that I have on loan & I'm putting through its paces.

I am mightily impressed with this amp and if you're interested in following my journey of discovery with it (so to speak) then look in on the Vox discussion forum. Aimed at the more Pro player this is aimed at a different market to the Valvetronix VT+, Peavey Vypyr, or Mustang range, and at 150w it is NOT for bedroom players!

It sounds fabulous, has 44 great sounding amp models, 25 great sounding effects, has more punch than Mohammad Ali, is louder than *$! and has wonderful floor control with the VC12. And the new EL84 power-tube/valve-reactor design really does make it react like an all-valve rig re punch, dynamics, feel!

But its big problem is cost - although this is beginning to fall. The amp on its own was £599 but several places are now selling it for £499. The VC12SV is circa £225-250 (yikes!) and the 1x12" extn cab with another excellent 150w Celestion Neodymium speaker (which turns this 150w amp into an ear shattering 300w monster rig!! :twisted: :!: :shock: ) is about £200. Or you can go for the limited edition full 'VTX300' rig - amp, 1x12" cab, with special red anodised piping, VC12SV, for £999!!!

That's a LOT of money - but if you have the cash this is one hell of a rig! You don't get USB, software, or lcd screens....but you do get valve tone, power & versatility like there's no tomorrow! (out of my league financially...but it doesn't stop me from really wanting one!!)

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:53 pm
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Rockcat wrote:
Shame you guys are having so many problems with this. I had a Mustang III for 3 weeks (I'm UK) and it was perfect - no noise/humm/fizz whatsoever. Based on my experience, I think that the Mustangs represent arguably the best value for money out there at the moment, & the III is probably the best version package for the majority of people.

Mine didn't fizz until 5 weeks. I note the verb "had." Fender consumer service advised both me and my local service center that they all fizz, eventually. But I'll agree, if you spend twice the price, there are many other options. I'm looking into mine.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:23 am
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Can anyone confirm whether this problem shows up outside North Amercia, i.e. with 220-240V power supplies?
I'm in Australia (240V) and was seriously considering one before reading about the issues. Clean sounds are very important to me.

BTW - this has been an excellent, thoughtful and informative discussion.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:50 am
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brucefulton wrote:
Rockcat wrote:
Shame you guys are having so many problems with this. I had a Mustang III for 3 weeks (I'm UK) and it was perfect - no noise/humm/fizz whatsoever. Based on my experience, I think that the Mustangs represent arguably the best value for money out there at the moment, & the III is probably the best version package for the majority of people.

Mine didn't fizz until 5 weeks. I note the verb "had." Fender consumer service advised both me and my local service center that they all fizz, eventually. But I'll agree, if you spend twice the price, there are many other options. I'm looking into mine.


The MIII only went back because it had no extn cab out which I needed. Otherwise it was a fine sounding & versatile amp at its price point. I'm now left wondering if the fizz would have developed, or not, if I'd kept it.

My instinct tells me this fizz problem is a (mainly) US issue to do with the different transformer for a 110v power-supply, as its the only thing that makes sense as to why so few UK issues have been reported.

However, I've today sent an E-mail to both Fender US & Fender UK asking for some answers and to identify exactly which components are causing the fizz issue.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:24 am
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fearlessflier wrote:
Can anyone confirm whether this problem shows up outside North Amercia, i.e. with 220-240V power supplies?
One positive here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=63434. There may've been more in this thread, or others.

Rockcat wrote:
However, I've today sent an E-mail to both Fender US & Fender UK asking for some answers and to identify exactly which components are causing the fizz issue.
I think you're optimistic. Though you've received unexpected replies before, so who knows, maybe they have a soft spot for you. :)

patrickm wrote:
My thinking (and, for the record I am a EE specialized in analog design): a design flaw. not a DSP/firmware issues, but something marginal in the harware
You may've been the right candidate to analyze the problem. Too bad you didn't pry it open and attach a scope. :)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:45 am
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I live in Germany where we have 240V.
I have had 2 new Mustang III which I both returned because they had the fizz problem.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:26 am
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The fact that Fender calls the fizz a "digital artifact" leads me to conclude that it's a microprocessor issue--the components that create or process the sounds we hear are not always producing pure tones.

I think the higher the amplification, the more apparent the noise, and that Fender was able to mask it on the MI and MII with a firmware upgrade, but on the higher-power models, the sound is amplified too much to hide.

The Mustang is not the only amp with this issue. The Vox user forums are packed with Valvetronix users talking about "snare hiss," and I've read that the Roland Cube has it as well.

I'll bet everyone buys their mass-produced COSM components from the same place, and that they work fine at lower amplifications, but at higher amplifications any quirks or defects become noticeable.

There may be noise-free technology that is out there but is too expensive to put into this line of amps. A fix is probably not going to happen until there is some technology breakthrough in producing better quality tones at mass-production prices.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:30 am
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cormorant wrote:
The fact that Fender calls the fizz a "digital artifact" leads me to conclude that it's a microprocessor issue
That's unlikely since it's there for some and not for others. Digital processors generally either work, or don't work at all. Also, it doesn't happen with headphones.

I don't remember if anyone tried, but it could also be checked by skipping the digital stages of the amp entirely: connecting an external modeler to the FX return and seeing if it's there.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:37 pm
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IMO ... the fizz is not repairable. If it is ... where's the evidence ... definitive evidence.

What ticks me off is that Fender continues to advertise that the Mustang amp series does good clean tones and they provide several sound clips to prove it. But ... if ya end up with a fizzy amp and Fender ... tells you it can't be fixed or that the fizz is within spec or replaces the amp with another one that fizzes or refuses to fix it or refuses to refund your money ... then Fender has scammed those owners. IMO that's unforgivable ... and for it ... Fender does not deserve your business.

KenB


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