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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:03 am
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Fraid not Ken - the MIII is officially Fender's best selling variant of the Mustang range & they are very, very happy with the sales figs. So comments in my post still stand - if you're po'd you should 'fight for your rights' the right way by proving your case, not burning your amp (and wouldn't that be 'flaming' on forum??!! :mrgreen: LOL.)

Rich :wink:

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Last edited by Rockcat on Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:18 pm
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First post here, I think :?: ... refugee from TGP (bluesdoc there) :roll:

So, I got my MIII a couple of weeks or so ago and was disappointed to hear what I'd have to describe as mild digital hash with note fade. Not really audible at volume, but obvious with quiet playing. My guy at Sweetwater told me that SS amps suck at low volume. Okayyyy. But from reading other's accounts of their experience with this amp, it seemed like mine wasn't too bad. Well... Then I upgraded the firmware to 1.8 and 90+% of the fizz went away. btw, despite buying new last month, its production date was Feb '11. The amp otherwise is a great sounding amp to my ear, and I've had lots of high end tube stuff in my day (playing for ~52 yrs :shock: ), and this one is huge bang for the buck. I haven't been able to try it with either of my bands yet, but I'm looking forward to that and am confident it will please. Still, if there's defective hardware, I'd sure like that corrected. btw, there is no fizz pre loop return, or phones out, as everyone seems to know. My .02...

jon


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:28 pm
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I know what the mystery "fix" is, and why they're keeping it a mystery. This amp like so many other Chinese SS models are officially categorized by Fender as "DO NOT REPAIR" units. They are simply replaced with another. Which may well have the exact same problem. Or not if you're lucky.

They don't want to admit that. But that's their magic "fix". Sure saves on man-hours.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:37 am
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I think Musicmaster2 and rockcat have it pegged. I'm a GDEC3-30 owner (great amp!) wanting to buy a Mustang IV. I've been watching this thread since its inception waiting for the "cure" so I can go and pick one up. What seems likely to me is the largest supplier of one of the hardware components scrimped on that part, creating the fizz problem on MOST of the amps. Large companies like Fender rarely single-source their components, so the secondary supplier produced the part properly, resulting in the no-fizz amps. In production, all the parts in question from both suppliers are thrown together, so it's a crapshoot as to whether you get a fizz-free specimen or not. From the feedback on this forum it seems your chances are way under 50/50 for getting a good sample. Due to the low cost of parts and labor in China, it's a no brainer to replace, not repair here in the US or Europe where labor costs are high.

BTW, I can't believe that Fender Corp., who developed the product and has been making amps of every description for over a half century doesn't know exactly what the problem is. They just don't want to acknowledge the error, let alone foot the bill for the component replacement, which undoubtedly is in an inaccessible (read: expensive to repair) spot.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:06 pm
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The additional point is that the fizz happens over time. You may be fine at first but this low grade part wears out after a while so selelcting a fizz free amp is very difficult. Mine had none at first but recently has started fizzing at low volumes.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:14 am
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dethpoi wrote:
Mine had none at first but recently has started fizzing at low volumes.
How long did it take for it to develop? What's the amp's manufacture date?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:45 pm
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I have notice the fizz on my Mustang V amp. It only occurs on certain notes on the 6th string. It's when I play clean A and Bb are very noticeable. It doesn't bother me too much though. Every amp I've owned has some sort of undesirable noise. My 1965 Super Reverb RI and DRRI had horrible tube and speaker rattle.I had to change all the tubes to rectify the problem. My TRRI had a loud hum with the reverb.My Vibrolux had an inherent hum that was due to the design of the circuit. How do I handle it? I don't pay much attention to it.With the Mustang V It's a few notes only on certain settings that I'm not too dependent on. If I was recording or playing clean jazz it would bother me more. It's no worse than the horrible dimmer switches that create noise in my house..
I paid $265 for it. Compared to the thousands I've spend on those tube amps with all the noise I think it's livable...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:48 am
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Does the fizz still happen using a modeler into the fx return?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:06 am
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I haven't tried that and I don't have much fizz left but the pathology is AFTER the return, ie, in the power amp section, so I'd expect it to occur with another modeler into the Fx Return.

jon


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:31 am
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I have avoided coming back to this thread mainly because I came to the conclusion that Mustang amps that have the fizz are not fixable. Whether it's multiple suppliers of certain components or phases of the moon, it seems clear that replacement and rolling the dice are the only options for folks who buy and end up with a fizzer. That is not an acceptable purchasing scenario for me.

Why I did come back to check in is the fact that I own a 6 month old Princeton Reissue that sounds beautiful, when it works as it was designed to work. The problems have been frustratingly simple in nature and apparently due to the use of poor quailty components.

The entire amp just stopped one day and we traced the problem to a bad speaker plug. Once we replaced the $.99 plastic plug with a decent metal one, the amp came back to life. It seems that Fender Service Centers are replacing a lot of these cheap speaker plugs. Then, I decided to use the 2 button footswitch that came with the Princeton and promptly discovered that the reverb button did nothing and that the tremolo button serves as an on off switch for the entire amp. You step on the trem button and the amp goes quiet.

I raise this issue here in the Mustang fizz thread because it seem ironic that one of the explanations of the fizz phenenom is that the Mustangs are inexpensive amps and sometimes you get some undesirable outcomes with less expensive amps that offer otherwise good features. Well, my Princeton RI lists for over $1,200 and the quality of some of the components that came with it is decidedly poor; not because Fender has to make cost saving component decisions on a $299 amp, but because they have apparently decided to go cheap on critical elements than can make the amp cease to make sound on a $1,200 amp. This sort of QA/QC is not what I think of when I think of Fender.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:58 pm
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I'm afraid that cost cutting and use of cheap components is a major problem with all of the 'big name' manufacturers. Changes in attitudes and economic conditions mean that the customer demography has changed. Customers will no longer spend £1,100 on modeling amps like the Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX when the price of valve amps has also fallen to maintain sales (albeit component/build quality has suffered). The days of bullet proof over-engineered amps like the original JMI Vox AC30 and Fender Bassman are long gone.

So for DSP amps, manufacturers like Vox and Fender concentrate on the mass lower cost market where individual profit margins are lower, and small savings in component quality make a big difference when total sales are taken into account. For example, Vox insists on using cheap jacks in its Valvetronix amps that oxidise & stick and account for 90% plus of all the reported problems - yet even though this has been pointed out time & time again they refuse to change, saying that minor cost savings on small components make a big difference to profitability on mass market products. One of our techies on Valvetronix.net was so fed up with this that he has even come up with a replacement easy fix pack that folk can buy to 'bullet proof' their amps so to speak.

The problem has been caused by customers wanting more features and cheaper price gear, market competition, and economic downturns forcing a move to manufacturing bases with cheap labour and cheaper parts. This has followed through into valve amps where true hand-built all-hand-wired amps with a wiring loom and top quality components with no PCB's are now mainly the province of boutique manufacturers. Amps like the new AC30C1 have pcb's and a solidstate rectifier section.

Line 6 pretty much started it - the Line 6 Flextone II was made in the US and built like a tank. The Flextone III was originally built in the US (one of its proud selling points) but they couldn't make sufficient profits and the Flextone III Plus amp (the biggest seller) was (then) £699. So they moved production to China, saved component costs too, and the amp dropped in price to £450 in the UK. Other manufacturers then started to do the same thing in order to compete.

So, the reality is that we as customers have contributed to the problem & we're now paying the price because you can't have your cake and eat it - i.e. low cost, more/better features, but of high quality - the two are an oxymoron.

What you can have is a workable compromise that will be good enough to deliver a product at an acceptable price-point that meets the needs of most customers and where problems are 'managed' * either by accepting a certain percentage of product failures, repairs & replacements (* which can just mean staying silent & not answering/acknowledging the problem eg fizz/noise issues on some Mustang, Valvetronix & Vypyr amps!).

Don't shoot the messenger - it's just a fact of life now!

But to Fender's credit:

1. They take an active interest in the forum and do take feedback on board
2. They've designed a very good amp range at a great price that is built at least as solidly as anything else at a similar price-point
3. They back up their products with a damned good warranty - 5yrs USA/Canada, 2 yrs UK (with other regional variations) - which is better than a lot of other manufacturers out there.

So look at the big picture and what £200 or so can buy you, and don't be too critical of them! Making judgement calls on even small components requires the judgement of Solomon - nothing is arbitrary & every decision goes through a tough process including just how much testing time is done pre-market launch.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:26 pm
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Rockcat wrote:
I'm afraid that cost cutting and use of cheap components is a major problem with all of the 'big name' manufacturers. Changes in attitudes and economic conditions mean that the customer demography has changed. Customers will no longer spend £1,100 on modeling amps like the Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX when the price of valve amps has also fallen to maintain sales (albeit component/build quality has suffered). The days of bullet proof over-engineered amps like the original JMI Vox AC30 and Fender Bassman are long gone.

So for DSP amps, manufacturers like Vox and Fender concentrate on the mass lower cost market where individual profit margins are lower, and small savings in component quality make a big difference when total sales are taken into account. For example, Vox insists on using cheap jacks in its Valvetronix amps that oxidise & stick and account for 90% plus of all the reported problems - yet even though this has been pointed out time & time again they refuse to change, saying that minor cost savings on small components make a big difference to profitability on mass market products. One of our techies on Valvetronix.net was so fed up with this that he has even come up with a replacement easy fix pack that folk can buy to 'bullet proof' their amps so to speak.

The problem has been caused by customers wanting more features and cheaper price gear, market competition, and economic downturns forcing a move to manufacturing bases with cheap labour and cheaper parts. This has followed through into valve amps where true hand-built all-hand-wired amps with a wiring loom and top quality components with no PCB's are now mainly the province of boutique manufacturers. Amps like the new AC30C1 have pcb's and a solidstate rectifier section.

Line 6 pretty much started it - the Line 6 Flextone II was made in the US and built like a tank. The Flextone III was originally built in the US (one of its proud selling points) but they couldn't make sufficient profits and the Flextone III Plus amp (the biggest seller) was (then) £699. So they moved production to China, saved component costs too, and the amp dropped in price to £450 in the UK. Other manufacturers then started to do the same thing in order to compete.

So, the reality is that we as customers have contributed to the problem & we're now paying the price because you can't have your cake and eat it - i.e. low cost, more/better features, but of high quality - the two are an oxymoron.

What you can have is a workable compromise that will be good enough to deliver a product at an acceptable price-point that meets the needs of most customers and where problems are 'managed' * either by accepting a certain percentage of product failures, repairs & replacements (* which can just mean staying silent & not answering/acknowledging the problem eg fizz/noise issues on some Mustang, Valvetronix & Vypyr amps!).

Don't shoot the messenger - it's just a fact of life now!

But to Fender's credit:

1. They take an active interest in the forum and do take feedback on board
2. They've designed a very good amp range at a great price that is built at least as solidly as anything else at a similar price-point
3. They back up their products with a damned good warranty - 5yrs USA/Canada, 2 yrs UK (with other regional variations) - which is better than a lot of other manufacturers out there.

So look at the big picture and what £200 or so can buy you, and don't be too critical of them! Making judgement calls on even small components requires the judgement of Solomon - nothing is arbitrary & every decision goes through a tough process including just how much testing time is done pre-market launch.

Rich :wink:


All of what you say rings true with one subtle but important variation, in my view. Everyone in the music industry as well as anyone who has utilized electronic amps and guitars knows, either from experience or common sense that cheap plastic plugs, whether at the ends of speaker wires, patch cords or guitar cables fail regularly. Fender knows that too, yet they choose to use such components on an amp that retails for $1,200.

PCBs and tubes are items where cost can be cut and profits maximized. For the most part, they function well enough to allow the amp to make sound. Short shrifting physical connectors that result in an amp that no longer works fails the workable compromise test. It is rather a business decision that degrades respect for a company whose history demands better behavior towards its customers. Having a 5 year warranty is a good thing. Needing to use it because of poor quality components is not.

After one 100 mile round trip to diagnose and repair the failure of a $.99 part and another trip looming to deal with a footswitch that is useless, my confidence in Fender's quality control is fading fast.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:30 am
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I feel your pain, honestly, but my post addressed this exact theme which as I said is common to all of the big main name manufactuirers across their amp range. In the UK, this type of failure issue potentially falls under the Sale & Supply of goods and services Act where (possibly) the amp may not be considered 'fit for purpose'. In your case Fender has repaired the amp.

Personally, on a $1,200 amp I would complain in writing to Fender and insist on some compensation for your inconvenience. I'd also ask them point blank to give a written response as to why they use cheap jacks even on top-end priced products and ask for their decision in upgrading these on new amps, & I'd post their response here! The foot pedal failure also deserves an explanation but doesn't fundamentally affect your underlying ability to use the amp although its an inconvenience.

In short, I recommend you stand up for your rights and 'fight back' so to speak. If more customers do this, the more manufacturers will begin to sit up & listen....and positively act, to us!

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:49 am
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Even with a cost-cutting goal, how much a difference a few cents for decent connectors are going to make? Is it even enough to offset the cost of more warranty servicing? And that's besides immaterial things such as tarnished company image.

As for all the usual dissing of Chinese production, I don't think that by itself means quality compromises. Labor is cheaper there but not necessarily less qualified. I think the problem is that manufacturers choose, along with it, less stringent QC practices. Choosing inferior QC obviously also entails choosing to manufacture in places with cheaper labor, but the reverse doesn't have to hold true.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:23 am
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I completely agree re quality control suffering but cheaper components and faster manufacturing processes such as gluing sockets to a pcb are key causes of problems. Ditto power supply transformers that are less robust than units used say even 5 yrs ago. And manufacturers do cost to the penny because savings on bulk products all add up. Corporate mentality sadly.

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