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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:49 am
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Wow, I can't believe Fender is just saying "tough luck" to anyone who bought a Mustang III. I'm pretty leery of buying any Fender amp now. I've heard the Roland Cube 80XL has a completely noise-free clean sound, so that's probably what I'll get.

This isn't the Fender I know and remember, and I bought my first Fender amp (Princeton) back in the 60's. I guess things change.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:59 am
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strumcat wrote:
This isn't the Fender I know and remember, and I bought my first Fender amp (Princeton) back in the 60's. I guess things change.

And allowing this forum to degrade to a hangout for low life trolls, isn't helping either.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:01 am
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I almost bought a M3 last night but the store was out of stock.
Now, I read all of this stuff :( Was it the reason that the store did not have any stock on them?

The M2 is enough power for me but I do like the M3 display. I came here to seek advice if the M3 could be turned down enough to be used in my home. Basically, is there a large jump in volume between the 1 and 2 setting.

That is unfortunate since I was looking at the Line 6 and decided to not get it because the sound was not good. I turned here and now this. Is there anything good MOD that I can look at ?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:35 am
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Interesting, the L6 HD series sounds bad?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:44 pm
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Bill_1 wrote:
The M2 is enough power for me but I do like the M3 display. I came here to seek advice if the M3 could be turned down enough to be used in my home. Basically, is there a large jump in volume between the 1 and 2 setting.

That is unfortunate since I was looking at the Line 6 and decided to not get it because the sound was not good. I turned here and now this. Is there anything good MOD that I can look at ?


hi Bill_1,
i absolutely agree with you: the display is a very useful feature and make various settings a lot easier than M2 or M1.. i need to be able to change all parameters if i need it also when i'm far from my daw (i have not a notebook).

you could have read on precedent posts , i have just request a replacement (here in Italy) of my M3 , bought just 2 weeks ago, because the widespread problem of the fizz..
i hope that an amp without that problem will arrive soon (i think in september) to our distributor .. as someone in the USA has just received a replacement amp with production date 20 march 2011 ... and seems that he is happy with his new amp .. my amp was made in february 2011.. but has fizz like those made in 2010.
perhaps Fender has find the cause of problem and the new stocks are fizz free.

about line6 products.. i don't have try those products but for what i have hear in youtube demostrations i have understand that basically i don't like that sounds.. to much cold or digital sound, Fender models are far better.. if you don't consider the matter of the fizz..

The volume of the M3 is very manageable also if you want to play in a house.. also i believed that was a problem to manage 100 watt but then i have realize there is not reason to be afraid of that.
if you enter an external source with fixed level like a dvd/cd recorder (like mine) by AUX and the input level of the music is high (usually normalized to 0 dB) there is some little difficulty to balance the sound by Master volume but you can find the same a proper setting between 1 and 2.. moving slowly the knob..
but to play guitar normally there is no problem at all to set even an almost background volume output level from the speaker.

to answer to you last question : On my opinion if you want get an excellent and reliable 100% archive of digital models amp/cabs sounds and as much excellent vintage and modern models effects , and if you have enough budget to invest on, you could consider to go toward Fractal Audio products of California .. if you live in America you can get those professional Digital sound processors at a lower price compared our european price of course.
have you already try or simply hear the complete demostrations about "Axe fx - Axe fx Ultra and the newest Axe fx 2 " ? on youtube you can find some good videos (and audio) about this products.. i don't attach the link of another product cause i don't know if it is allowed in the forum but i give you one reference title to find them " (R)evolution of rock guitar ...." ..a long demostration divided in 4 parts well played and also in high quality recording.
(from the same productor, there is also a dedicated line of passive and powered cab - "Atomic amps" - to amplify properly the Axe line..)

Dimitri


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:32 pm
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Dimitri,

I went back to my local music store after reading all the material here. It is quite a large store and had a conversation with the sales person that I spoke to last night. They don't work on commission and the store has a 30 days 100% full refund policy on anything they sell. I spoke to him about this forum. He was not aware of these problems. They never had a single complaint from all the M3 they sold. They are out of stock now (Except for the demo unit) and they are getting more next week.

The amp has the features that I want. I am not a professional and I cannot afford the real purist amp. I probably would not appreciate them either - not sure. I have listened to the recording done by a forum member about the noise. It is not a good thing but there is also a quiz on this forum where 50% of the users have problems and the other 50% are happy with their purchase. I don't know the settings on the amp or guitar/pickup types used to do the recording. I have a Zoom pedal that costs more than 1/2 the purchase price of this amp so I know that I am not buying a Cadillac.

I am going to purchase one of these amp from the new shipment next week. I am going to take it home and try it. If I get this problem on 1 or 2 amp settings then I am going to avoid them since this is not an expensive amp. If it is all on settings with my equipment then this is not going to work then I am going to return the amp for a full refund and obviously I am going to have to purchase something of better quality and spend more money.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:25 am
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Bill_1 wrote:

I am going to purchase one of these amp from the new shipment next week. I am going to take it home and try it. If I get this problem on 1 or 2 amp settings then I am going to avoid them since this is not an expensive amp. If it is all on settings with my equipment then this is not going to work then I am going to return the amp for a full refund and obviously I am going to have to purchase something of better quality and spend more money.


yes, of course. it is a good thing to have the money back policy option ..

usually the fizz can be heard more easily on most clean models... but, as already said in precedent messages, it is possible to hear it also using crunchy or even light/medium overdrive sounds.
it is also true that some models are able to "mask" that phenomenon more easily than other.. the more clean and transparent is the basic sound the more easily the fizz can be heard (if it happens).. particularly playing gently.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:33 am
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Hi, l..mano,
The MIII is not a valve amp, obviously, in that, IMO, from current experience,
it needs a full-on guitar p/u input signal to sample. Any signal below a certain
level is going to make it struggle to create the full digital image with all the
nuances and harmonics we require and desire. The decaying note signal, as
the string looses vibration, presents the sampler with the same problem.
So keep the guitar p/u on full volume with the amp at Gain 4 or below and use
the Volume and Masters in the Preset to control your desired level. A Volume
Pedal in the FX Loop will take care of your live playing levels. So the standard
techniques of using the p/u volume knobs to control the amp are
not really ideal with a Digital Modelling amp like the MIII . Also Effects, (via Fuse),
after the amp may be more desirable, to fit in with above observations.
Better stop the wandering here.
Hope my experiences helps those that love the MIII , faults 'n' all , and are
prepared to experiment to get the sounds we love.

Have fun twiddling,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:56 pm
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Fender may make a running fix to the power supplies and just never admit there was a problem. That would be the standard corporate weasel thing to do.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:40 pm
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jimfdr wrote:
Hi, l..mano,
The MIII is not a valve amp, obviously, in that, IMO, from current experience,
it needs a full-on guitar p/u input signal to sample. Any signal below a certain
level is going to make it struggle to create the full digital image with all the
nuances and harmonics we require and desire. The decaying note signal, as
the string looses vibration, presents the sampler with the same problem.
So keep the guitar p/u on full volume with the amp at Gain 4 or below and use
the Volume and Masters in the Preset to control your desired level. A Volume
Pedal in the FX Loop will take care of your live playing levels. So the standard
techniques of using the p/u volume knobs to control the amp are
not really ideal with a Digital Modelling amp like the MIII . Also Effects, (via Fuse),
after the amp may be more desirable, to fit in with above observations.
Better stop the wandering here.
Hope my experiences helps those that love the MIII , faults 'n' all , and are
prepared to experiment to get the sounds we love.

Have fun twiddling,
Jim


Your weak pickup signal idea makes sense ... but do we think Fender is so stupid that they didn't design-in an allowance for variations in pickup output whether it be due to pickup design or guitar volume settings? I certainly hope not ...

IMO. We have lots of theories ... some may be correct ... but seems to me we have yet to find conclusive evidence, aka proof ... of the cause of the fizz problem. I feel the same about the power supply theory ... as far as I know only one guy has said the fizz went away after the power supply was replaced. Might be an outlier ... might be spot on ... but we need more than 1 report to make a reasonable conclusion. We may never know because fizzy amps are replaced under warranty with new amps rather than repaired.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:16 am
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jimfdr wrote:
Hi, l..mano,
The MIII is not a valve amp, obviously, in that, IMO, from current experience,
it needs a full-on guitar p/u input signal to sample. Any signal below a certain
level is going to make it struggle to create the full digital image with all the
nuances and harmonics we require and desire. The decaying note signal, as
the string looses vibration, presents the sampler with the same problem.
So keep the guitar p/u on full volume with the amp at Gain 4 or below and use
the Volume and Masters in the Preset to control your desired level. A Volume
Pedal in the FX Loop will take care of your live playing levels. So the standard
techniques of using the p/u volume knobs to control the amp are
not really ideal with a Digital Modelling amp like the MIII . Also Effects, (via Fuse),
after the amp may be more desirable, to fit in with above observations.
Better stop the wandering here.
Hope my experiences helps those that love the MIII , faults 'n' all , and are
prepared to experiment to get the sounds we love.

Have fun twiddling,
Jim


Hi Jim,
i'm sorry to say that is not so exact:
you can experience that fizzy phaser sound also when you keep the guitar volume at 10.. i have a Yamaha SG 800 with alnico 5 humbuckers (they're quite powerful) and splits on tone pots .. i could hear the fizz stronger when i used humbuckers settings.. on the contrary when i used splitted humbuckers , single coils-like sounds i got less of bottom interference.
So the more is the signal the more is the fizz.. on my experience.
as a matter of fact when i have bring the faulty amp to my guitar shop the guy which has try the amp used a Stratocaster with 3 single coils and hardly we could hear the fizz and just under particular combinations of pickups..

i continue to sustain the hypothesis of a problem in the power amp section. as already said i could experience the fizz also connecting a clean signal on the Return of the effect loop. at that stage the digital preamp section is bypassed.
i couldn't experience it by headphone output.. at that stage just preamp section is active and power amp is bypassed..

Dim


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:02 am
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Hi loshamano,

My wanderings were not intended as a comment on your amps obvious
"fizz" problem, but more of a general observation on the difference between
a real valve amp and a digital modeller. Even with the an MIII that has no fizz
(or one that has been fixed by Fender), the digital sampling issue still remains.
Hum and noise, from a single coil or bad cable grounding, stays that way on a
valve amp, but who knows in what form it will be emulated on a digital modeller
which tries to sample every signal, musical or otherwise. The signal to noise ratio
must be as high as possible. Wanderings over.
On the subject of your faulty MIII , you should take your amp back to your dealer
and assert your rights under Fenders Warranty for a repair or replacement.
We now know that the issue can be resolved. Good luck.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:29 am
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I’m hoping someone can save me the trouble of reading through all 30 pages…but I have a Mustang 3, since February of this year. Played primarily with a Les Paul Traditional. I have never heard anything fizz-like with any tone, at any volume. Is this a universal problem or am I in a lucky majority/minority? Should I be looking for this problem? For me, the Mustang 3 is the best thing to ever happen. No pedals, it cranks, the tone is perfect for so many songs. I love having all my presets available to me with the turn of a knob. I highly recommend adding the 4-button switch. I suppose the best thing about my mustang 3 is no fizz.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:34 pm
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You, like me, are in the majority and should feel lucky. A large minority has debilitating fizz. My fizz is very soft and you basically can't hear it once you crank up.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:36 pm
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Re: repair. Demand the power supply fix and make Fender tell you different. We're now armed with something concrete, and it's up to Fender to prove the fix is something else.

But usually they swap out, that's the default postion.


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