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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:13 am
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Orcatraz wrote:
One thing I just noticed is that these two posts contradict each other.

kingogdogs1950.1 wrote:
I am able to use the amp now by using an external power amp (that was previously used for near field monitors).
Guitar > MIII > send to power amp > back to MIII speaker. This bypasses the MIII power section completely. Works great, no fizz and the patches work normally.
I have verified that there are no issues with the speaker, cabinet or guitar. When I spoke with the Fender c/s rep he said they know of the problem and are working on it. He took my e-mail address and said I would be notified when, etc, etc...

Mark Robinson
College Station, Texas


kingogdogs1950.1 and I might not actually be contradicting each other. If I understand his post correctly, the signal goes from FX send on the Mustang III to the power amp, and from the power amp directly to the speaker on the Mustang III (using a combo amp speaker cable, or just speaker cable), skipping the FX return entirely. FX loops are meant to operate on line or instrument level, so feeding the FX return the output from a power amp might get ugly. If he's connecting directly to the speaker and that eliminates the fizz, that's more evidence that the problem is between FX return and the speaker.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:03 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
MusicalCircuitry wrote:
If there is in fact DSP after the FX return, there are plenty of potential causes for fizz/noise - lack of (or inappropriate use of) dithering, quantization distortion as a result of accidental rounding or truncation, etc. Of course, tracking down said cause could be incredibly difficult, but at least it wouldn't require a recall or service appointment.
I don't think you can bypass the DSP because that is the amp itself. There was a discussion about what the "plain" amp sounds like w/out modelling but there isn't such a state. One thing you could try is to see if you can hear the fizz on the fx out.


This got me wondering, so I did an experiment. I hooked up like this:

Guitar -> POD HD500 -> FX return on the Mustang III

Running through some clean presets on the HD500 for jazz, clean blues, and fingerstyle, I then tinkered with the knobs on the Mustang III. The only setting that had any noticeable effect was the master volume knob. I still had my nice clean tones, even when the Mustang III was on a metal preset, even if the gain knob on the Mustang III was cranked, even if I added overdrive or fuzz stomp boxes on the Mustang III, etc. Sadly, yes, the fizz was still present, as I've mentioned in other posts about this.

So, perhaps there isn't any DSP after the FX return, and it's just solid state components after that. In that case, the FX loop comes after cabinet modeling, which is interesting. If there is only solid state components after the FX loop though, that's bad news for us, since changes to the firmware aren't likely to help anything.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:05 pm
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Connection was direct to the speaker from the external power amp. Did not use the fx return at all.

Mark


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:19 pm
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MusicalCircuitry wrote:
polishbroadcast wrote:
MusicalCircuitry wrote:
If there is in fact DSP after the FX return, there are plenty of potential causes for fizz/noise - lack of (or inappropriate use of) dithering, quantization distortion as a result of accidental rounding or truncation, etc. Of course, tracking down said cause could be incredibly difficult, but at least it wouldn't require a recall or service appointment.
I don't think you can bypass the DSP because that is the amp itself. There was a discussion about what the "plain" amp sounds like w/out modelling but there isn't such a state. One thing you could try is to see if you can hear the fizz on the fx out.


This got me wondering, so I did an experiment. I hooked up like this:

Guitar -> POD HD500 -> FX return on the Mustang III

Running through some clean presets on the HD500 for jazz, clean blues, and fingerstyle, I then tinkered with the knobs on the Mustang III. The only setting that had any noticeable effect was the master volume knob. I still had my nice clean tones, even when the Mustang III was on a metal preset, even if the gain knob on the Mustang III was cranked, even if I added overdrive or fuzz stomp boxes on the Mustang III, etc. Sadly, yes, the fizz was still present, as I've mentioned in other posts about this.

So, perhaps there isn't any DSP after the FX return, and it's just solid state components after that. In that case, the FX loop comes after cabinet modeling, which is interesting. If there is only solid state components after the FX loop though, that's bad news for us, since changes to the firmware aren't likely to help anything.

So, if this is true, does that mean it is a power problem or a shielding problem? Or something else?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:20 pm
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MusicalCircuitry wrote:
Running through some clean presets on the HD500 for jazz, clean blues, and fingerstyle, I then tinkered with the knobs on the Mustang III. The only setting that had any noticeable effect was the master volume knob. I still had my nice clean tones, even when the Mustang III was on a metal preset, even if the gain knob on the Mustang III was cranked, even if I added overdrive or fuzz stomp boxes on the Mustang III, etc. Sadly, yes, the fizz was still present, as I've mentioned in other posts about this.

So, perhaps there isn't any DSP after the FX return, and it's just solid state components after that. In that case, the FX loop comes after cabinet modeling, which is interesting. If there is only solid state components after the FX loop though, that's bad news for us, since changes to the firmware aren't likely to help anything.
Great sleuthing. This is kinda blowing my mind because i thought for sure it was digital distortion. I know you tried it with a UPS / conditioner (i did too), but have you tried at other locations?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:18 pm
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MusicalCircuitry wrote:
So, perhaps there isn't any DSP after the FX return, and it's just solid state components after that. In that case, the FX loop comes after cabinet modeling, which is interesting. If there is only solid state components after the FX loop though, that's bad news for us, since changes to the firmware aren't likely to help anything.


There really is no reason to have any DSP happening after the FX Return. It's all analog from that point on. My money is still on bad components or interconnects - either at FX Send or Return or both.

Curiously, I had a really really old guitar cable scare the crap out of me by making a very similar fizzy sound this morning. The only reason I suspected it (the cable) was because of where I found it - in a box of cables I rarely use and couldn't remember why I rarely use them. Now I remember that most of them are broken.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:39 pm
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MusicalCircuitry wrote:
kingogdogs1950.1 and I might not actually be contradicting each other. If I understand his post correctly, the signal goes from FX send on the Mustang III to the power amp, and from the power amp directly to the speaker on the Mustang III (using a combo amp speaker cable, or just speaker cable), skipping the FX return entirely. FX loops are meant to operate on line or instrument level, so feeding the FX return the output from a power amp might get ugly. If he's connecting directly to the speaker and that eliminates the fizz, that's more evidence that the problem is between FX return and the speaker.


I stand corrected. You are absolutely right. Sorry, sometimes descriptions of signal routing perplexes me. So ok, you're both eliminating the Mustang's power amp but in different ways. I was thinking about this post by baerashbrewer and got the posts confused.

baerashbrewer wrote:
AHA! What about this little riddle?

How come when I hook my MP3 player up to it there is no noise? It must have to be strictly in the modeling area. That is not to say that it has to do with the LCD screen, but still, little fishy?


So, I'm assuming (I know, Iknow) that he's sending signal to the power amp via the Aux in, bypassing the FX Return and gets no fizz.

WEIRD, But this gives me an idea. Buy a 1/4" to 1/8" cable at Radioshack, connect the 1/4" plug to the FX Send and the 1/8" plug to the Aux in and see if you get fizz. This completely bypasses the FX Return signal path but still gets the signal to the power amp.

O.

P.S. I fixed the other post.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:02 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
MusicalCircuitry wrote:
kingogdogs1950.1 and I might not actually be contradicting each other. If I understand his post correctly, the signal goes from FX send on the Mustang III to the power amp, and from the power amp directly to the speaker on the Mustang III (using a combo amp speaker cable, or just speaker cable), skipping the FX return entirely. FX loops are meant to operate on line or instrument level, so feeding the FX return the output from a power amp might get ugly. If he's connecting directly to the speaker and that eliminates the fizz, that's more evidence that the problem is between FX return and the speaker.

I stand corrected. You are absolutely right. Sorry, sometimes descriptions of signal routing perplexes me. So ok, you're both eliminating the Mustang's power amp but in different ways. I was thinking about this post by baerashbrewer and got the posts confused.
baerashbrewer wrote:
AHA! What about this little riddle?
How come when I hook my MP3 player up to it there is no noise? It must have to be strictly in the modeling area. That is not to say that it has to do with the LCD screen, but still, little fishy?

So, I'm assuming (I know, Iknow) that he's sending signal to the power amp via the Aux in, bypassing the FX Return and gets no fizz.
WEIRD, But this gives me an idea. Buy a 1/4" to 1/8" cable at Radioshack, connect the 1/4" plug to the FX Send and the 1/8" plug to the Aux in and see if you get fizz. This completely bypasses the FX Return signal path but still gets the signal to the power amp.
O.
P.S. I fixed the other post.

I just tried it, unfortunately it didn't make anything different. It was like the cable wasn't there. I did hook my guitar up to the 1/4" side and into the AUX and cranked it. No fizz.

Just for fun I tried on of those "Three-Prong to TwoProng" connectors for the power cable. Didn't do anything, just checking for fun.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:22 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
I just tried it, unfortunately it didn't make anything different. It was like the cable wasn't there. I did hook my guitar up to the 1/4" side and into the AUX and cranked it. No fizz.

Just for fun I tried on of those "Three-Prong to TwoProng" connectors for the power cable. Didn't do anything, just checking for fun.


Dang!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:09 pm
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What perplexes me is why the heck are you all trying to "solve" it for "Fender"? have they even responded to this post????

says it all for me.... :)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:14 pm
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gibson57guy wrote:
What perplexes me is why the heck are you all trying to "solve" it for "Fender"? have they even responded to this post????

says it all for me.... :)


This amp, for all this, is amazing. And I am a tube snob. Still am. Except for this amp. I don't really care who solves it, because I would like to start using the amp for more than practice. That and most importantly, this thread has gotten the attention of Fender and has received many viewers.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:27 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
gibson57guy wrote:
What perplexes me is why the heck are you all trying to "solve" it for "Fender"? have they even responded to this post????

says it all for me.... :)


This amp, for all this, is amazing. And I am a tube snob. Still am. Except for this amp. I don't really care who solves it, because I would like to start using the amp for more than practice. That and most importantly, this thread has gotten the attention of Fender and has received many viewers.


I have the mustang 4 and am quite pleased with it.... I guess....maybe many viewers.. have seen this thread..... but don't see Fender responding...??.. All they have to do is say.. sorry.. we don't know what's going on.. but we'll make it right........ Quite honestly I'm amazed at their customer service and online presence.... I just don't understand... why they are kind of ignoring this thread??? When they have been most helpful in others....

:) :) please note attempted smiley face...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:43 pm
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gibson57guy wrote:
I have the mustang 4 and am quite pleased with it.... I guess....maybe many viewers.. have seen this thread..... but don't see Fender responding...??.. All they have to do is say.. sorry.. we don't know what's going on.. but we'll make it right........ Quite honestly I'm amazed at their customer service and online presence.... I just don't understand... why they are kind of ignoring this thread??? When they have been most helpful in others....

:) :) please note attempted smiley face...

I know, I know. I am a little surprised with their presence too. If anyone sends a direct private message or calls the people at Fender, they will tell you that they are aware of it. I hope that everyone that has the problem does, too. Maybe were are being silly about this, but I think that they would like this better than everyone going on to a big online retailer website and giving them bad reviews. If they don't address the problem soon, that just might happen. Those who are unhappy with a product are more likely to speak up about it.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:13 pm
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While this thread gets a lot of views, one of the less fortunate aspects of the thread that might influence Fender's decision on whether or when to weigh in is that there are relatively few posters who are carrying the thread along.

While I still basically believe that Fender will correct this issue, it occurs to me that one possible strategy Fender might employ is to simply discover the cause of the problem, quietly fix it and leave current owners to reply on the Fender warranty terms and conditions to address any dissatisfaction with the amps.

From a public relations standpoint, this approach has both elements of risk as well as potential reward. The risk is in an otherwise very customer oriented company appearing to adopt a position of responding to a functional problem with some of their amps only if the owner chooses to utilize the warranty available to them (is the Mustang series covered by the same 5 year warranty as my Princeton Reissue?), while quietly fixing the problem for all future owners. In this case, "early adopters" end up as beta testers with little or no feedback along with the responsibility to affirmatively address the amps problem on their own by initiating a warranty claim as opposed to Fender announcing a fix.

The reward is in avoiding any public "Whoops" announcement. However, people with reasonably operational memories and familiarity with the word Tylenol will also see that this is one "reward" that can come back to Fender in a different form.

Perhaps the real problem here is that people who are experiencing the fizz/tail end distortion (or whatever term accurately describes unwanted and unmusical sounds) are sitting on the sidelines and letting the folks who are keeping this thread going carry the water. If that continues, it is possible that Fender will determine that the public awareness of the problem is relatively small in scope and that the best option is to view this as a small issue that is easily corrected by future production changes and warranty response.

The problem with that scenario for me is that I have no way of determining which amp has been blessed with the fix. With no comment from Fender to clarify what I would be buying, the only safe course would be to pass on the Mustang. Buying and having to return an amp for a known problem is simply too much of a hassle for me.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:49 pm
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bborzell wrote:
(is the Mustang series covered by the same 5 year warranty as my Princeton Reissue?)
In the US at least, but probably less elsewhere.

Quote:
If that continues, it is possible that Fender will determine that the public awareness of the problem is relatively small in scope
People here reported seeing it mentioned on other sites as well.


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