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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:21 am
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SexyLikeAPig wrote:
Hey, do you think it's worth returning my amp for a new one and hope I get lucky? Or should I keep it and wait for a solution?
not really. There doesn't seem to be a parallel between date ranges and fizz. I don't think there are good and bad amps in this case. Can you try the amp at a friend's house or some other venues?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:49 am
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SexyLikeAPig wrote:
Thanks, I'll return it tomorrow. Let you guys know what happens. If it happens again, I'll look into something else.


I gotta tell ya, so far there's not much that I really really don't like in the MII. Yes, all the things available on the MIII would indeed be very nice but the MII's lack of them is not exactly getting in my way. People are still blown away by the sound I'm getting from the amp. Only the irrational tube snobs continue to object and argue... unsuccessfully because the tone speaks for itself.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:15 pm
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SexyLikeAPig wrote:
polishbroadcast wrote:
Orcatraz wrote:
why not return it and get the Mustang II?
I originally wanted the II for the size and wattage, but decided on the III for a few reasons:
1. Open back cabinet. This is a big deal.
2. Dedicated "normal" amp controls including reverb. You have to pre-program the II for a few settings that you can easily access on the III.


Same here. The FX Loop is nice bonus to.


Not too mention the 100 watts is a big deal for some of us. When playing with a loud drummer, or getting called for a wedding gig, or an outdoor gig, where you aren't sure if you will be mic'd through a PA, the II just isn't loud enough. Plus, ditto on the effects loop, normal amp controls.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:04 pm
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I don't know how others are viewing this issue, but since the amp I am looking to replace is doing very well for my needs at the moment, I'm content to wait until Fender gets this sorted out.

At that point, I'll buy a III in a heartbeat.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:42 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
polishbroadcast wrote:
baerashbrewer wrote:
It can't be a power issue with the DSP now. My bet is on the LCD screen now. I'll add this to the sum of info on my previous post.
Sure it can. Since you are removing the power amp of the Mustang from the system, there is less draw (just like when you use headphones and USB). I still think it is power quality related, possibly tied to the LCD.


That would imply that the power supply in the MIII is not up to the task of providing the required power to the entire system. If this were the case, all MIII should suffer the same malady. They don't. I think it is more likely that the power amp in some Mustangs were built with sub-par components - perhaps the power transistors. Kudos to Mark for sussing it out on his amp. Now let's hope that everybody with an MIII can confirm this.

O.
Not really. It implies there is insufficient power filtering and/or supply, and when you have bad / noisy / low power in one location, you get the fizz. If the power is fine, then you don't have an issue. I say this because it has happened to me before. This exact sound was on a looper pedal i had. I bought it from a guy who had no issues with it, i called Electro Harmonix, they knew about the issue and had to modify it. The problem was a power supply issue. I just happened to be the first person to discover it because of bad power.

Using an external power amp is the same as using the headphones: they both take the power amp out of the system.

Actual wall voltage and quality varies even from house to house, let alone from city to city. That seems much more likely to me than amps that were made in the same month having sporadically bad parts. I think they are consistently bad parts, inconsistently bad AC power. Bad transformer? Bad filtering? I have no idea. I do believe the issue is digital noise caused by power issues. If it was the power amp it would be an analog distortion. How else do you explain the same amp being ok at the store, and not ok at home? Regardless of which theory is right, it seems like most people think it is a hardware issue. I really hope there is a firmware fix, but i really doubt it.

Has anyone with the Mustang III fizz tried it at a friends house, or other venue?

As bborzell said, once it all gets sorted, i'll buy one again in a heartbeat.

ps. i just looked at the email from Electro Harmonix that said: "The problem you are describing was something that occurred in early units. It would happen if the wall voltage was too low." The issue was you could hear interference from the tempo click even when it was off. For the Mustang, this lines up with the "noise from the LCD" theory since i obviously have low wall voltage, the LCD could be doing the same thing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:34 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
Has anyone with the Mustang III fizz tried it at a friends house, or other venue?


Yes. I have tried it at a friends house, a venue, a studio, I have tried it with power conditioners, surge protectors, UPS, surge suppressors. No change, not even amount or quality of fizz.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:44 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
polishbroadcast wrote:
Has anyone with the Mustang III fizz tried it at a friends house, or other venue?


Yes. I have tried it at a friends house, a venue, a studio, I have tried it with power conditioners, surge protectors, UPS, surge suppressors. No change, not even amount or quality of fizz.
Oh. :(

What was the date on yours again?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:07 pm
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11/2010 here, no fizzes.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:54 pm
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022011 is the number. 02 2011?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:06 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
022011 is the number. 02 2011?
yes.

Mine is from 11/2010 but i have seen that date twice from people with no issues.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:07 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
polishbroadcast wrote:
Has anyone with the Mustang III fizz tried it at a friends house, or other venue?


Yes. I have tried it at a friends house, a venue, a studio, I have tried it with power conditioners, surge protectors, UPS, surge suppressors. No change, not even amount or quality of fizz.


I've been trying the same things, but nothing has helped. Initially I thought the fizz was eliminated while using a professional grade UPS, but was unable to replicate that. In retrospect, this may have been caused by excessive noise making it hard to notice the fizz the first time I tried it - a UPS capable of powering a full sized rack is not quiet! This same problem may explain why the fizz is not evident when some users have brought their amps back to their local music store - typically not quiet environments.

There has been a lot of speculation that the problem may be hardware related in the power amp section, but I think there is still hope that it can be fixed in firmware. I have noticed that I don't get any fizz if I connect the FX send to external monitors and listen that way, yet if I bypass the Mustang's modelling by using an external modeler and plug into the FX return, I do get the fizz. The FX loop of an amp is typically between the pre-amp and power amp, which suggests there may still be some DSP activities applied after the FX return - after all, where else would the power amp and cabinet modeling go? If the FX loop comes after power amp and cabinet modelling, I can't imagine it being very effective.

If there is in fact DSP after the FX return, there are plenty of potential causes for fizz/noise - lack of (or inappropriate use of) dithering, quantization distortion as a result of accidental rounding or truncation, etc. Of course, tracking down said cause could be incredibly difficult, but at least it wouldn't require a recall or service appointment.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:32 pm
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MusicalCircuitry wrote:
If there is in fact DSP after the FX return, there are plenty of potential causes for fizz/noise - lack of (or inappropriate use of) dithering, quantization distortion as a result of accidental rounding or truncation, etc. Of course, tracking down said cause could be incredibly difficult, but at least it wouldn't require a recall or service appointment.
I don't think you can bypass the DSP because that is the amp itself. There was a discussion about what the "plain" amp sounds like w/out modelling but there isn't such a state. One thing you could try is to see if you can hear the fizz on the fx out.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:43 am
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A quick note to "lurkers" of this thread that are having the same problem. Please take the time to create an account and post something saying that you are in the same boat. Especially if you have any info that would be helpful. I have not received a single email or spam since creating an account, so you don't have to worry about that.

The more accounts recorded about this problem, the more attention it will get and the more information can be received to come to a conclusion about the problem.

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:09 am
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One thing I just noticed is that these two posts contradict each other. I'm assuming that baerashbrewer is plugging the CD player in the Aux In.
baerashbrewer wrote:
AHA! What about this little riddle?

How come when I hook my MP3 player up to it there is no noise? It must have to be strictly in the modeling area. That is not to say that it has to do with the LCD screen, but still, little fishy?



MusicalCircuitry wrote:

There has been a lot of speculation that the problem may be hardware related in the power amp section, but I think there is still hope that it can be fixed in firmware. I have noticed that I don't get any fizz if I connect the FX send to external monitors and listen that way, yet if I bypass the Mustang's modelling by using an external modeler and plug into the FX return, I do get the fizz. The FX loop of an amp is typically between the pre-amp and power amp, which suggests there may still be some DSP activities applied after the FX return - after all, where else would the power amp and cabinet modeling go? If the FX loop comes after power amp and cabinet modelling, I can't imagine it being very effective.

If there is in fact DSP after the FX return, there are plenty of potential causes for fizz/noise - lack of (or inappropriate use of) dithering, quantization distortion as a result of accidental rounding or truncation, etc. Of course, tracking down said cause could be incredibly difficult, but at least it wouldn't require a recall or service appointment.



So essentially, there's something that happens between the FX Send and FX Return. It would've been nice it turned out to be definitively one or the other. :roll: Oh well, more info is more info.

O


Last edited by Orcatraz on Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:26 am
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I took my MIII to Austin Amps yesterday for warranty service. The tech said he would call Fender to see what is going on with the MIII. He said most likely they would send a replacement amp. I'll post when I know more.

Mark


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