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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:09 pm
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thompal wrote:
Well, FYI, I've been trying to find one that Fizzes so I COULD get it and start seeing what I could find out.


I call total BS.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:10 pm
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thompal wrote:
I've actually gone to a few stores looking for one with The Fizz so I could have a look. None of them did it. I told one store guy that I was really wanting to buy one that was defective and made a funny noise. He was little help after that. Needless to say, every one I've tried so far has been Fizz-Free.

Umm, right.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:52 pm
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I suspect Fender knows exactly where the problem is and how to fix it. But, that fix, whatever it may be either replacing chips at a component level or a board swap, would cost them more than they're making off the amp in total... they probably figured on a 3.5% failure rate during the warranty period, not the 33%-50%-66% that seems to exhibit the 'fizz' problem.

I believe I read somewhere that Fender official position says that the 'fizz' sound should be considered normal and does not indicate a defect or problem with the amp... first that's total B.S.... show me where in the manual or any sales brochure where it says that. I can tell that's mumbo-jumbo (B.S.) speak for 'we can't possibly afford to fix all these amps! Let's call it 'normal' and ignore customers complaints'

Also, what happened to beta testers? Why didn't they find this problem in the first place? Anyone who demoed and passed the Mustang-III before it went into production, the whole lot of them, should be fired immediately! That's totally inexcusable for a product to make its way all though the design, testing, pre-production phases to show up with this kind of problem in the end. Totally unacceptable and if I were head of that department heads would roll, I guarantee you.

Overall it does leave one with the impression of POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE... I mean how could it not... what is this the CBS days? I had always thought that Fender was a more respectable company that would go the extra mile out of their way to help... I guess not.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:00 pm
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You have to wonder if Leo was still alive and running the business today how this would be handled... I bet it would have a whole different outcome.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:36 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:
Well, FYI, I've been trying to find one that Fizzes so I COULD get it and start seeing what I could find out.

I might suggest that it's more fun for some people to throw rotten fruit at Fender than take a little initiative and look into the problem themselves.

You simply must be joking. No, I guess you're not. Nothing about my experience with Fender has been fun. What do you suggest we do? Pay an independent electronic engineer more than the amp costs to diagnose what Fender has clearly stated they already know? Design a new IC?

I suspect you haven't actually looked at the internal board. It's nothing but custom proprietary ICs with unlabeled pinouts and a small handful of discrete components. Look at it. I don't think you ever have. If you had, you would recognize the futility of your quest. There is nothing here to fix.

So you have a sine wave trace. What do you propose to fix or replace it with? You would have no choice but to ask fender to send you a replacement IC, hope it doesn't fizz, and hope you can R&R the existing chip. And then so what? You haven't fixed the problem because you don't have the proprietary IC design and don't have a design lab and chip fab to fix it.

Give me a break.


If you had a good scope trace from various points in the amp after the final D/A conversion, it would tell worlds about what is going on. Is it crossover distortion? Is it a problem with the supply filters? If it shows up at the output of the D/A converter, then at least you know it's something that isn't a simple fix, but even then you could try different settings (i.e.- is it caused by the insertion of reverb into a patch? Does changing the gate setting change the fizz? Does the compressor threshold affect it? etc). All of which could be addressed in firmware, as long as you have a precise set of settings/parameters that produce results. There's a wealth of things that can be done, besides simply sitting around wringing one's hands.

If people over the past 50 years had simply taken the attitude that Fender should do all the work, then I think we would probably not have any aftermarket pickups, there would have been no modded amps, etc. We would just have just sat around telling Fender to 'please do this.' Where is our "let's get this done" attitude?? Heck, when did a bunch of musicians lose their "let's see what THIS does" curiosity? When did we, as musicians, get a "let's wait for someone to do it for me" attitude?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:43 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
thompal wrote:
Well, FYI, I've been trying to find one that Fizzes so I COULD get it and start seeing what I could find out.


I call total BS.


Why is it BS??? Did you ever consider that all of the amps in my area came from one particular batch, and those batches are Fizz-Free?? Did you ever consider that might be a clue??? Or do you see that simply as another failure on Fender's part because they didn't equally distribute the amps geographically??

REALLY??? Are you so blinded by resentment that you refuse to ever TRY to see a pattern, but instead see EVERYTHING as someone's fault??

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1983 (?) Musicmaster
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Acoustic G60-T
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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:55 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
thompal wrote:
I might suggest that it's more fun for some people to throw rotten fruit at Fender than take a little initiative and look into the problem themselves.


This attitude really ticks me off.

Fender designed, built, marketed and sold the thing ... who the heck else do you think dissatisfied customers should point fingers at?

KenB


Well, a cynic would point out that a customer had ample opportunity to "test drive" one in the store, read reviews, and in the case of buying from an on-line retailer, had 30-45 days in which to return it for a full refund if they were dissatisfied. So, is it the fault of a company that makes a product a customer doesn't like, or is it the fault of a customer who buys and keeps a product he doesn't like??

This isn't like the first series solid state amps, that all worked for a while (but sounded horrible) and then had nearly 100% failure from catastrophic thermal runaway. It's not even like another major amp maker who designed an amp with the output tubes directly beneath, and parallel to, some filter caps, so when the caps aged prematurely, the output lost bias and the amp ate itself. This is something that is, according to those who have it, 100% reproducible on demand.

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1963 Princeton
1965 Twin Reverb
1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:09 pm
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Hey thompal, we're all very impressed with your remarkable electronics expertise, but I'm just a part-time musician, and I don't know a sine wave from a sinus infection. You think I'm going to run electronic diagnostic tests on my Mustang? That's pretty funny!

Do I want Fender to fix my amp? Yeah, who else?

BTW, all MIII's MIV's and MV's fizz, or will eventually. Otherwise, Fender would just replace the fizzers.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:01 am
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thompal wrote:
Well, a cynic would point out that a customer had ample opportunity to "test drive" one in the store, read reviews, and in the case of buying from an on-line retailer, had 30-45 days in which to return it for a full refund if they were dissatisfied. So, is it the fault of a company that makes a product a customer doesn't like, or is it the fault of a customer who buys and keeps a product he doesn't like??


Or ... in the instance of fizzy Mustangs ... is it the fault of a company that sells the amp based on advertising that it replicates the clean tones the company is famous for (listen to the sound files used in their advertising) ... and when told by the customer that it doesn't and is provided clear proof of it by presentation of the amp to the dealer or warranty center ... refuses to stand behind the product ... claims the behavior of the amp is within spec and instead blames it on the customer whom it claims listens too closely.

Fizz may or may not start within the return period ... regardless ... if Fender won't replace or repair the amp under warranty ... they have fleeced the customer out of their money. These customers have a right to be ticked off at Fender.

Owners of fizzy Mustangs trusted that Fender would take care of them ... and Fender has fallen flat on their face in that regard and compounded it by insulting their customers as an artifact of their stated position.

The fault lies with Fender ... not their customer.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:46 am
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thompal wrote:
If people over the past 50 years had simply taken the attitude that Fender should do all the work, then I think we would probably not have any aftermarket pickups, there would have been no modded amps, etc. We would just have just sat around telling Fender to 'please do this.' Where is our "let's get this done" attitude?? Heck, when did a bunch of musicians lose their "let's see what THIS does" curiosity? When did we, as musicians, get a "let's wait for someone to do it for me" attitude?


Great ... a pep talk ...

Perhaps you should consider giving your pep talk to Fender who built the darn things ... "where's your let's get this done attitude?" ... "when did we as a company wait for our customers to do our work for us?" ... "when did we as a company stop listening to customers who asked us to please do whatever?".

It's one thing to do what you want ... if you have the technical skill, equipment, time, money and inclination. Most of us don't.

Mustang users didn't create fizz ... Fender did ... Fender deserves the blame.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:59 am
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KenB5 wrote:
... is it the fault of a company that sells the amp based on advertising that it replicates the clean tones the company is famous for (listen to the sound files used in their advertising)


Are you implying the sound files used in their advertising weren't created using a Fender Mustang amplifier?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:36 am
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Hey thompal, in case you've missed the pattern that goes on throughout this entire thread... there's 4 or maybe 5 people who feel they've been burned by Fender and refuse to let go of any argument that doesn't end with Fender getting burned right back. They're entitled to their opinions, so be it. These tit for tat arguments, mostly butting heads against those same 4 or 5 people, are the bulk of what have perpetuated this thread for 76 pages now, and are what keeps the thread from ever reaching a solution to the "problem" or just letting the whole damn thing die.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from posting anything that you feel you have to offer. There are valid points to be made on both sides of the fence. I'm just saying this thread always digresses into the same pissing contest, and nobody wins.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:49 am
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Scorpaeon pretty much sums it up perfectly, not worth anyone's time to argue with the peanut gallery

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:07 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Scorpaeon pretty much sums it up perfectly, not worth anyone's time to argue with the peanut gallery


I think you may be right.

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1963 Princeton
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1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:35 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
KenB5 wrote:
... is it the fault of a company that sells the amp based on advertising that it replicates the clean tones the company is famous for (listen to the sound files used in their advertising)


Are you implying the sound files used in their advertising weren't created using a Fender Mustang amplifier?


Uhm ... no ... I'm not ... how did ya deduce that? I'm just adding to thompal's theme in which I quoted.

I'm saying the sound files of clean tones used by Fender on their site for the Mustang ... are not representative of the clean tones produced by fizzy Mustangs ... therefore those amps have not lived up to Fenders advertised assertion that they replicate clean tones to the degree that fender advertises they do.

KenB


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