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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:28 am
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Can
Tony65 wrote:
When I purchased my Mustang-III I did not know about any problems with a 'fizz' - I first read about it here after I already bought it. Had I know there was a problem I probably would have bought something else.


Can you still use the amp for what you bought it for? If yes then so what? And just out of curiosity, what would you have bought? There are pros and cons to everything.

I was in the same boat. I didn't know about the fizz until I read about it here. And yes, the initial shock was "OMG!" Then I discovered that I have to do A, B, C, and D to even be able to detect it. You can take any amp you want and find some combination of parameters that result in undesirable noise. If you like the amp you avoid those parameters. In 99% of my guitar playing situations, its no big deal.

I'm just saying I don't think the fizz is that big of an issue. For the vast majority of Mustang users, the amps meet or exceed their expectations.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:36 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
Can
Tony65 wrote:
When I purchased my Mustang-III I did not know about any problems with a 'fizz' - I first read about it here after I already bought it. Had I know there was a problem I probably would have bought something else.


Can you still use the amp for what you bought it for? If yes then so what? And just out of curiosity, what would you have bought? There are pros and cons to everything.

I was in the same boat. I didn't know about the fizz until I read about it here. And yes, the initial shock was "OMG!" Then I discovered that I have to do A, B, C, and D to even be able to detect it. You can take any amp you want and find some combination of parameters that result in undesirable noise. If you like the amp you avoid those parameters. In 99% of my guitar playing situations, its no big deal.

I'm just saying I don't think the fizz is that big of an issue. For the vast majority of Mustang users, the amps meet or exceed their expectations.


Good for you that you like your fizzy Mustang ... nothing to knock there! ... but for some ... the fizz is so obvious it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:08 am
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Tony65 wrote:
When I purchased my Mustang-III I did not know about any problems with a 'fizz' - I first read about it here after I already bought it. Had I know there was a problem I probably would have bought something else.


That's true! Alot ppl wouldn't buy it after reading this. I wouldn't either, but i'm still a proud owner.
Although i read it's the kinda sound you make: 'cleans' (like KenB said: folk that are into cleans should be cautious if they are considering this amp) when these kinda fizz problems can be heard.

strings10927 wrote:
I don't see how re-posting this year old audio sample relates to Fender's statement and whether or not The Fender Tech Support Lab was trying to 'blame discerning listeners'. But thank you for that blast from the past. :mrgreen:


Talking about audio anyways, i don't think studio's use these Fender amps to record music, do they?
Do pro musicians even use these ones, lol?
Tbh, i'm not even an amateur, but i still got this amazing m3 amp for €269 and feeling like a pro.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:24 pm
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Vinze wrote:
Do pro musicians even use these ones, lol?


What is your definition of a 'pro' musician?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:48 am
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KenB5 wrote:

Good for you that you like your fizzy Mustang ... nothing to knock there! ... but for some ... the fizz is so obvious it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

KenB

Right, I agree. But I would add that those "some" fall into the category of "discerning listener"... nothing to knock there either. We all have discern for our own preferences.

strings10927 wrote:
Vinze wrote:
Do pro musicians even use these ones, lol?


What is your definition of a 'pro' musician?

These are not top of the line amps by any stretch. But within their category (digital modeling amp) they are the one to beat.

Gigging musicians certainly are using them with great success.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:05 am
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"... some discerning listeners may consider the smallest sonic variable a limitation."


I find that the guitar and its pickups also make a difference in the fizz.

I often use a Classic Player Jazzmaster Special on my MIII's Twin Reverb or Deluxe Reverb settings. If I use the bridge pickup alone, or both pickups together, the fizz is masked by the trebliness of the pickups. Neck pickup alone and the fizz can be heard. Switch to the rhythm circuit, which has pretty much zero treble, and you don't have to be a "discerning listener" to go "what the heck is that noise?!?!" The Jazzmaster rhythm circuit is for the most part unusable on my MIII.

Fender still hasn't really addressed the fizz issue other than to say that if the fizz bothers you, you're too fussy. However they haven't tried to suppress the conversation either, so at least people who are currently in the market for an MIII-MV have heard about the potential limitation. An advantage that I didn't have.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:16 pm
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Quote:
The fizz is caused by the power supply

That's a very specific and definite statement. I haven't seen anyone else be that certain about that being the cause, although it would make sense from the reported symptoms.

Can you give more detail? What exactly about the power supply is the problem? Is it simply that the power supply (at least, that part of it that goes to the power amp) is 'noisy' and that noise is being transferred to the audio signal? Or ...?

I'm increasingly thinking that the 'buzz' from my amp is in fact the 'fizz' problem, and it's getting worse, to the point where an amp that was initially a joy to use is becoming unlistenable-to, and I wouldn't say I'm an overly discerning listener.

So, as everything else about the amp is still good, I'm wondering how easy a home upgrade to the power supply would be, if that's all it's going to take to fix the problem? (I don't mean easy in terms of electronics or safety, I'm ok with that side of it; I mean in terms of gaining access to and being able to replace/bypass or maybe just add a filter to the relevant bits inside the amp - obviously I realise all the caveats about voiding warranties and Fender would discourage it, etc).

(NB to answer an earlier question, no I'm not the only person to report that an initially 'good' amp has subsequently developed the problem - from what I've read, that seems quite a common pattern).


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:34 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
I'm increasingly thinking that the 'buzz' from my amp is in fact the 'fizz' problem


Plug it into an Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) and see if you still hear anything. That should pretty much rule out any buzz coming through your electric.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:23 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
The fizz is caused by the power supply

That's a very specific and definite statement. I haven't seen anyone else be that certain about that being the cause, although it would make sense from the reported symptoms.

Can you give more detail? What exactly about the power supply is the problem? Is it simply that the power supply (at least, that part of it that goes to the power amp) is 'noisy' and that noise is being transferred to the audio signal?


@scott-uk

Way back in this thread ... due to no input from Fender ... and lacking any other source of knowledgeable and relevant technical input ... users started speculating what the cause of the fizz could be. Many things were discussed ... such as power quality, chips, LCD's and other things.

Among them was an assertion that the Mustang power supply was the culprit. This was because an owner took his fizzy Mustang to a Fender warranty center and was told by them that the power supply was the cause. They replaced the power supply and the owner reported that replacement of his power supply got rid of the fizz ... BUT he also reported that the fizz returned 2 weeks later. A couple of people jumped on the power supply bandwagon ... IMO despite the lack of clear and unambiguous evidence that the power supply was the cause ... lots of talk ensued ... and the power supply legend was born.

For me to believe that fizz is caused by the power supply ... I want to read more than speculation ... or read one post about a power supply fix that didn't fix the fizz problem ... I want to see reports by a few owners that whatever they fixed/replaced actually worked. Preferably ... I'd also like to see Fender say ... "Yep, we figured out the fizz was caused by whatever ... bring 'em in ... we'll fix 'em" Neither has happened ... not in the history of this thread nor previous threads.

IMO there is no evidence ... as reported by owners of fizzy Mustangs ... that fixing the power supply or frankly anything else ... got rid of the fizz.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:43 pm
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This has got to be the single longest-running thread that's actually stayed on topic in the history of internet forums.

Just by comming in here, I think I need a drink.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:14 am
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Quote:
For me to believe that fizz is caused by the power supply I want to ...

KenB5 - yes I agree with you, hence asking for more detail.

Although bizarrely, having 'threatened' my amp with a soldering iron in my post yesterday, when I got home and turned it on, the buzz/fizz was a lot less than it had been the day before. No, I don't know why and haven't investigated yet. Maybe I'll just leave the soldering iron next to the amp as a continuing reminder for it to behave itself!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:55 am
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did you try plugging into a UPS scott-uk?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:00 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Although bizarrely, having 'threatened' my amp with a soldering iron in my post yesterday, when I got home and turned it on, the buzz/fizz was a lot less than it had been the day before. No, I don't know why and haven't investigated yet. Maybe I'll just leave the soldering iron next to the amp as a continuing reminder for it to behave itself!


I have a friend I play games with who does something similar. He had a 20-sided die that constantly f***ed him on die-rolls, so one day he took a hammer to it and cracked it into pieces. Those pieces, he put inside the bag with the rest of the other dice. The average dice roll number tends to be over the 65% mark now - as if the other dice don't want to end up with the same fate.

Weird, right? I guess that sometimes it's not enough that you threaten damage to the rest. Sometimes you have to prove that you'll do it and leave the evidence where everyone can see.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:09 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
For me to believe that fizz is caused by the power supply I want to ...

KenB5 - yes I agree with you, hence asking for more detail.

Although bizarrely, having 'threatened' my amp with a soldering iron in my post yesterday, when I got home and turned it on, the buzz/fizz was a lot less than it had been the day before. No, I don't know why and haven't investigated yet. Maybe I'll just leave the soldering iron next to the amp as a continuing reminder for it to behave itself!


I think it's not the power supply, but rather the power amp--that last stage which is amplifying the digital signal on it's way out to the speaker.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:21 am
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cormorant wrote:
scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
For me to believe that fizz is caused by the power supply I want to ...

KenB5 - yes I agree with you, hence asking for more detail.

Although bizarrely, having 'threatened' my amp with a soldering iron in my post yesterday, when I got home and turned it on, the buzz/fizz was a lot less than it had been the day before. No, I don't know why and haven't investigated yet. Maybe I'll just leave the soldering iron next to the amp as a continuing reminder for it to behave itself!


I think it's not the power supply, but rather the power amp--that last stage which is amplifying the digital signal on it's way out to the speaker.


I just wish someone who has the problem would put up a scope trace of the output with a sine-wave on the input. We would at least see on the waveform where the noise is, and get an idea of what's causing it.

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