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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:05 am
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Quote:
has anyone tried Vinze's fix?

Vinze's fix, in summary, appears to be just to turn the noise gate on (adjusting Depth, one of the noise gate parameters, turns it on if it wasn't on before) and setting it to maximum.

Any undesirable artifacts in the final sound will (usually) come from multiple source noises interfering with each other. So using the noise gate to eliminate one source of noise is bound to improve things. However, the noise gate only shuts off noise when there is nothing being played. It has no effect to any sounds above the noise gate threshold, so based on past descriptions of the fizz problem, I don't see how the noise gate would help that problem. Possibly Vinze has a different variant of the problem for which the noise gate does help.

Although I don't think my amp has the "classic fizz" problem, it does have some undesirable "buzziness" on mid-gain settings. So I tried Vinze's suggestion. It made no difference in my case - for the same reason as above, the noise gate only affects the silence threshold, it has no effect on sounds being played above that threshold. At least that seems to be my experience / observation.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:30 pm
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I suspect anyone with fizz has long since dumped their Mustang, probably at a significant loss, and moved on. Anyone now looking for clean jazz/acoustic lines is also undoubtedly forewarned and is looking elsewhere, so people who would object to fizz are no longer buying the amps. Fizz really only affects jazz and acoustic players who think they can get the classic twin and other classic fender clean sound for $300 bucks without modeling artifacts and who are finely attuned to truly clean sounds for acoustic/jazz from amps such as the Roland jc120, ac60/90 or specialty amps such as the rivera or fishman which the mustangs don't model. Guitar players have long and deep memories. Niche players who bought into Fender mustang modeling technology expecting clean jazz/acoustic models feel pretty burned by Fender's lack of attention to the problem and lack of warranty support. That's the real issue. Fender has lost those guitarists probably for life. For the rest of their customers who like the amps and who don't care about acoustic/jazz lines, they're an economical choice.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:06 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
That's the real issue. Fender has lost those guitarists probably for life.


I think you shortchange either the loyalty of Fender fans AND also people's common sense. If Fender had NEVER made a single mistake, your argument COULD possibly have some merit. You seem to forget such "gems" as the "Evil Twin," the 1st solid state series (Bassman, Showman, etc, and the other gems, which I think were called the "London" series.

In comparison, the alleged "fizz" is not even a speck on the map compared to those other disasters.

We won't even mention "micro-tilt" necks, and 3 bolt neck mounting.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:05 am
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Quote:
the loyalty of Fender fans AND also people's common sense

A lot of people have brand loyalty, but (speaking generally, not referring to Fender specifically) also a lot of companies take advantage of that, which really annoys people and is what can turn a loyal, common-sense person into a brand-avoider for life.

Yes, every company makes mistakes, and consumers are generally tolerant to that (after all, none of us is perfect) - as long as the company handles those mistakes properly, and treats customers affected by those mistakes well. A minor mistake handled badly can disaffect customers (and potential future customers, via bad publicity) far more than a serious mistake handled well (again, speaking generally).


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:47 am
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Back to the original topic...

As mentioned in an earlier post, my amp seems to have developed a buzzing noise - I increasingly think it's what people are calling "fizz" although if I hadn't heard that term I'd describe it as a "buzz" - reminiscent of something physical vibrating (in resonance with the notes being played) rather than "digital artifacts" that others have described (and fwiw imvho I don't think it's a digital issue, for reasons I and others have expounded elsewhere on this forum).

So I did some investigation (ie searched the internet!). Interestingly, every major manufacturer of guitar digital modelling amps, digital effects units, etc, seems to have significant numbers of users complaining about "fizz" issues (at least those aimed at home and amateur/semi-pro gigging use, I didn't check professional-grade high-end equipment). The majority of people seem to attribute it to digital problems (and usually call it "digital fizz") but equally the majority of analysis suggests the problem is an analogue issue: most conclusions end up pointing at either the power amp or speakers. Interestingly that seems to be the majority view for Mustangs too. I also found a common theme of poor-quality soldering (either the solder itself, or the joints) being claimed as the cause.

That would certainly tie-in with my intuitive feeling that it's a resonant vibration - for example if the speaker's vibration were antagonising a slightly imperfect solder joint. Of course that could all be complete bunkum, and personally I'm not inclined to dismantle my Mustang just yet to resolder any suspect connections. Just some information/suggestions, if that helps move understanding of the problem forward for anyone else who's still investigating it.

Also I think it worth re-emphasising that it's not just Mustangs, it's every brand of modelling amp. So we shouldn't be Fender-bashing for them having done a bad job with the Mustang, the cause of the issue seems to be wider and inherent to this type of product. To what extent is the "digital modelling" aspect of these amps the cause of the problem, versus for example the fact that they all tend to be (comparatively) cheaply-made solid-state amps at their core, independent of the digital toys within? I have (from years ago when it was all I could afford) a cheap SS analogue practice amp and it has far more noise, buzzes, fizzes, etc, than the Mustang - but one just accepts that as the nature of a product of that price. I think the versatility of all the modelling and effects leads us to expect a perfect sound ("I have a Twin Reverb model, so my $300 amp should sound as good as a $1000 twin reverb"), when not all parts of the product are at that level.

It would be interesting to put all the modelling goodies in a high-end analogue amp (top quality components and cabinet materials, expertly assembled) and see if that still has the fizz issue. Personally, I suspect not. In another topic, I and others suggested (for different reasons) that Fender should consider adding a higher-quality "Mustang Pro" or "Mustang Studio" to the range. This would be another reason for creating such a product.

Just some opinions / thoughts...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:17 am
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scott-uk wrote:
a "buzz" - reminiscent of something physical vibrating
I think I recall someone mentioning he had a loose handle, or speaker, that vibrated and caused noise. Perhaps it's something similar in your case?

Quote:
a resonant vibration - for example if the speaker's vibration were antagonising a slightly imperfect solder joint.
If that was the cause Fender would fix it under warranty, I think.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:56 am
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scott-uk wrote:
Back to the original topic...

As mentioned in an earlier post, my amp seems to have developed a buzzing noise


Your amp just started doing it?? I was under the impression, that if an amp didn't have the problem it would be good. I know that some people who originally had the problem say it went away after various firmware updates.


scott-uk wrote:
In another topic, I and others suggested (for different reasons) that Fender should consider adding a higher-quality "Mustang Pro" or "Mustang Studio" to the range. This would be another reason for creating such a product.

Just some opinions / thoughts...


Yeah, I've got a list of changes that I'd love to see and call it a Mustang III Pro, or something. It would probably add about $100 to the price, but it would be well worth it, in my opinion, to end up with a pro-grade amp.

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1963 Princeton
1965 Twin Reverb
1968 Bandmaster
1970 Champ
1983 (?) Musicmaster
2012 Mustang III
West Grande (x2)
Acoustic G60-T
Marshall JTM 60


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:30 am
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@scott-uk,

I'm not 100% convinced that what you describe (your "buzz") is the fizz as defined in this thread. Once one finds the fizz, that is to say, once one either purposely or by chance creates the conditions which allow the fizz to be noticed, it is obvious that what you hear is a digital artifact.

If something in the amp is physicaly vibrating the source of said vibration must be coming from the speaker. As that is the only moving part in the amp. And if the speaker is causing vibration, it would stand to reason that a) you could induce it on any preset, and b) the more you turn up the volume, the more intense the vibration would become. That is not the case with the fizz.

P.S. My MIII is inflicted. Although it has never been a bother for me and was only ever just barely noticable on my amp, it does seem to have been all but erradicated by the latests firmware updates.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:17 am
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The fizz has not been eliminated by any firmware updates, because the fizz is not a software problem--it's a hardware problem. The fizz is caused by the power supply. When I play my MIII on settings with fizz, it's the same as it ever was, and I have the latest Fuse and firmware. Run that same signal directly into the PA from the MIII "Send" jack and there is no fizz coming from the PA speakers, because that signal is amplified by the PA amplifier.

The fizz will not be fixed without Fender upgrading the power supply.

If you think you don't have the fizz, don't go looking for it.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:01 pm
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Quote:
If you think you don't have the fizz, don't go looking for it.
Cheers to that!

For the longest time I either didn't have it, or chose to ignore it. Certain guitars of mine are unbearable now... mostly those with higher output pickups. Thankfully I purchased a 3 yr warrantee when I bought it March of '11 from GC so it's still covered... since it can't be fixed, I'm hoping they'll let me exchange it for a Super Champ x2 combo (proof that a $300 amp doesn't have to suck... I already have the X2 head and it's awesome).

Anybody have experience trying to return/exchange from Guitar Center? I'm curious to know what I'm in for...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:22 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
P.S. My MIII is inflicted. Although it has never been a bother for me and was only ever just barely noticable on my amp, it does seem to have been all but erradicated by the latests firmware updates.

I didn't want to come outright and say my amp has been cured, because I don't believe it has. But when I play my amp on settings with fizz (low, single, ringing notes), I either don't hear it or have a hard time detecting it. At worst it shows itself intermittently. In contrast to before the last couple of updates I could always find it when I tried too. Maybe its part pschological, I'm not looking for a problem so I'm not finding one. Maybe its partly because the issue is temperamental - some amps seem to be affected worse than others and I just got a good one. But I thnk its plausible that Fender may have written a firmware update that at the very least has mittigated the issue to some degree (perhaps more successfully for some than others).

Or maybe not. All I know is my amp sounds awesome.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:57 pm
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scott-uk wrote:
Quote:
has anyone tried Vinze's fix?

Vinze's fix, in summary, appears to be just to turn the noise gate on (adjusting Depth, one of the noise gate parameters, turns it on if it wasn't on before) and setting it to maximum.

Any undesirable artifacts in the final sound will (usually) come from multiple source noises interfering with each other. So using the noise gate to eliminate one source of noise is bound to improve things. However, the noise gate only shuts off noise when there is nothing being played. It has no effect to any sounds above the noise gate threshold, so based on past descriptions of the fizz problem, I don't see how the noise gate would help that problem. Possibly Vinze has a different variant of the problem for which the noise gate does help.

Although I don't think my amp has the "classic fizz" problem, it does have some undesirable "buzziness" on mid-gain settings. So I tried Vinze's suggestion. It made no difference in my case - for the same reason as above, the noise gate only affects the silence threshold, it has no effect on sounds being played above that threshold. At least that seems to be my experience / observation.


I posted on the wrong topic; i should've made a new one.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=73874&p=874338#p874338
I fixed a very loud humm (not fizz) noise (master volume) that excisted even when there wasn't anything plugged in.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=57294&p=869793#p869793

PS: my m3 is uptodate (firmware).
And i can't confirm if my 'humm' fix fixes the 'fizz' cos i play very loud music, so i prolly won't hear it.

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Last edited by Vinze on Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:00 pm
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well, at least you were on the right forum :roll: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:28 am
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PLEASE READ THIS

I registered here just for this.

I was a day before I would buy Mustang 3 amp, but then I started reading about this damned fizz.


I read more than half of this topic now and I can say, that most of you just whine about that damn fizz and do nothing about it.

1.) Someone please test for sure if the fiss doesn't come out in effect loop. Just plug the guitar in the effect loop connector.
If the fiss is still there, try using the effects loop "out" to another amp.

2.) If it is the poweramp this is better news than if it would be a preamp. Poweramp is analogue and more easibly fixed.

3.) NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN ENTIRE YEAR OF THIS TOPIC never took fizzing amp to someone who knows about electronics. Engeneer would easily look with an oscilloscope where the problem starts and we could identify the problem. Poweramps should be easy to fix. Forget about repairing the digital part.


Please stop whining and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Forget about the Fender, they will never fix it, because it would be too big of logistic problem.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:15 am
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FWIW:

1. This has been done (and I can't imagine it's not somewhere in this thread). The effects loop is clean - no fizz there.

2. A power amp is easily fixable ... on a serviceable guitar amp. The Fender Mustang III is literally glued together and not designed for replacing parts. It's a disposable amp, just like cell phones are disposable phones.

3. Maybe YOU can take one to an engineer. My MIII does not fizz, so it can't be me.

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