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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:43 pm
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The part in your previous message above where you said you could provide such a recording that demonstrates a fizzing amp that isn't audible on a recorded song. Put up or shut up. So to speak. You said, and I quote, "Of course I could, but would it help this thread?"

Yep, it would. Provide away.

kidrock wrote:
Which part of my previous post didn't you get?

The part that I wrote that it's fine by me if nobody records their horrible fizzing amp, or the carry on part?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:24 am
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brucefulton wrote:
The part in your previous message above where you said you could provide such a recording that demonstrates a fizzing amp that isn't audible on a recorded song. Put up or shut up. So to speak. You said, and I quote, "Of course I could, but would it help this thread?"

Yep, it would. Provide away.

kidrock wrote:
Which part of my previous post didn't you get?

The part that I wrote that it's fine by me if nobody records their horrible fizzing amp, or the carry on part?


It's clear to me that your just here to whine and pick a fight with everyone that has a different take on the situation because you feel cheated out by Fender. I mean c'mon man, you got rid of the amp. Get over it and move on.

This thread has started to reek of stale sour grapes and is basically a waste of time. I’m off to greener pastures where the air doesn’t smell so bad.

Good luck with the whining!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:32 am
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kidrock wrote:

If nobody want to make a recording of their horrible fizzing amp, that fine by me. I'm not the one complaining.

Carry on....


Actually, it would appear to most competent readers of your posts that you are, in fact, complaining quite a lot. You don't appear to be satisfied that many folks don't accept the proposition that any amp manufacturer should allow unplanned for sound artifacts coming out of their guitar amps. That's your complaint and why you would even care is beyond me.

Carry on...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:25 pm
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got rid of mine, but someone else has done you the favor: http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz

kidrock wrote:
A while back I also opted that someone make a recording of a bad fizzing amp and post it on youtube. That and complaining about it on a lot of different forums is probably the only way to get Fenders attention. I don't doubt the Mustang fizzes. Mine does too and I could easily replicate those clips posted at the beginning of this thread, but I hardly notice it when I play clean.

So, I'd say let's hear those Capricho Arabe (or whatever you Classical or Jazz players have trouble playing) recordings! I really think it needs to be crystal clear (pun intended ;-)) that there is a serious problem with these amps.
There's just too much gray area at the moment and little hard evidence that the amp is unusable for certain styles of playing.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:43 pm
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Egg, Meet face.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:25 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
got rid of mine, but someone else has done you the favor: http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz


I heard the fizz, but does not seem very different from any other digital home recording I've heard before.

Anyway, the result is not very pleasant.

Maybe someday I decide to buy the Mustang II. Just maybe.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:10 pm
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waao wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
got rid of mine, but someone else has done you the favor: http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz


I heard the fizz, but does not seem very different from any other digital home recording I've heard before.

Anyway, the result is not very pleasant.

Maybe someday I decide to buy the Mustang II. Just maybe.


I have read this comment before; that the fizz isn't much different from the sound of other recordings (presumably other modeling amps).

Notwithstanding the possibility that you are speaking of digital home recordings in general where all manner of possibilities of modifying the sound from the guitar to the recording medium can and do occur, (which would change the discussion entirely), it occurs to me that my Roland Cube 60 modeling amp has never produced any unplanned sound artifacts and, before I got a Princeton, it was my main amp for jazz. It has always been clean sound in and clean sound out.

The recording in question is pretty unique to me as an unwanted sound. It certainly isn't musical, to my ear.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:09 pm
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Thanks bborzell for your useful posts. I agree with comments on the Cube line too, I use a Cube 30 modified for a live band into my mixer without issue.

I thought I would post my first hand experience as an aid to those looking at this as help in a buying decision. I post very little but read much, including every page of this over the months to see what direction the product would go.

About a year ago I wanted an amp for serious practice that had some features and the MIII appealed to me as I am comfortable with a PC. My goal was to make up for some lost time in playing due to work situations so I was looking forward to plug and play with a focus on PLAYING the guitar again. I will just do a short list to summarize my actual experience.
-Fuse software loading problems -wasted many hours resolving- I was not one of the lucky ones on WinXP

-Enjoyed getting some tone varieties from the amp but I play alot of clean sounds and was annoyed by the results. (for those of you that do not think this is an issue never mind recordings or live use-- did you ever try to learn a new style or song and play a section 100 times over to learn it? ) So I have not wasted my time chiming in on many comments on the forum. In my opinion the fuzziness of the cleans was annoying to me.

-Fender support was always courteous and available.

-When it appeared there was no fix in for this I finally got them to admit that sending it in for repair was not a fix and the only way I could get a replacement was to pay shipping back to them and they would send me another like value product. So I could
a- live with it
b-send it back for a different product
c- sell or trade it locally
I opted for b and requested a SuperChamp XD. (a friend uses one frequently and I even run the sound system for them often, so I knew I would be far happier with this product)

So Fender was out quite a few hours of time and paperwork and so was I plus lost shipping and hours/days messing with the product.

Ok those are facts the following is my opinion only......ymmv
So looking back at my experience if I was asked about an opinion on buying a Mustang at all..... it depends on what your expectations are.

I am happy with the XD as a tool just turn it on and use the foot switch no PC needed, line out and speaker options. I can focus on playing and technique. (yea I know it has little hiss or noise floor issues if we want to get scientific but that is not my point here, they are minor compared to what the MIII did to clean tones.) The splash of tube tone is nice too.

As a concept I like the Mustang idea and would only go up the line to MII based on what I have heard so far if clean tones matter to you. It frustrated me to hear good tones from the headphone output that I would have been happy with. The design idea here is full of value and features.
If you like to rock out and the lack of out puts for a PA or mics are good for you go for it, these amps make a wide variety of useful sounds.

I am watching the results on the new SCX2 to see if the new power amp match up will avoid fuzzy and phasing sounds from the new features.

So hope this helps someone out there. Music is a really enjoyable part of life and the equipment used diverse.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:07 am
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Pistol...

It occurs to me that your experience with the performance of the III might be representative of more than a few who bought one. I am also believing , more and more, that Fender is successfully banking on the apparently accurate assumption that the vast majority of Mustang III and up owners simply have little or no need for clean sounds.

I think your decision to work with Fender to obtain a like value swap is really the only sensible option for players who are unwilling to live with the fizz artifact. In fact, if this option were made available to all of the folks here who have expressed consistent dissatisfaction, my guess is that this thread would fade into obscurity.

In my view, the reality of the fizz is not as significant to most III and up owners who won't accept the fizz as much as the feeling of being let down by a company who doesn't really have much of a history of letting customers down. It's kinda like waking up in a marriage one morning and realizing that some of the most important elements of the marriage vows that you heard from the girl (or guy) of your dreams turned out to be empty. Marriage counseling or divorce are the choices that come to mind (this analogy begins to get strained if we throw in the swap option).

But, staying with the analogy for as long as we can, it is clear that the counseling path is a dead end as Fender has drawn a line in the sand by saying you get what you pay for. Even divorce seems to be off the table as Fender will not honor the warranty for fizz issues. So, leaving the marriage analogy, a swap for a model that more reflects that which the buyer originally expected to get for his or her money, i.e., an amp that simply produces and augments amplified guitar sounds with out fizzes, is a fair and reasonable resolution, as I see it.

Since there appears to be no shortage of folks who can use the III and above Mustangs for the sort of music they like to play, I am sure that Fender could easily do a simple inspection and release swapped out Mustangs as reconditioned and perhaps this mess would fizz out and go away.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:07 am
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bborzell wrote:
I think your decision to work with Fender to obtain a like value swap is really the only sensible option for players who are unwilling to live with the fizz artifact. In fact, if this option were made available to all of the folks here who have expressed consistent dissatisfaction, my guess is that this thread would fade into obscurity.


I'm glad they did that for you, but when I tried to do exactly that, trade my MIII for a SCXD, they had no more SCXDs. All they would offer me was a Mustang II, and I would still have to pay to ship the III to them, and no consideration for the 4-button foot switch I bought for the III and which doesn't work with the II.

I suggested trading my III for a Mustang I and a Mustang II. Same retail value. They wouldn't do that. I suggested trading for a Mustang II and letting me keep the speaker from the III, as they would be landfilling the III anyway, and it would lower my shipping cost. They wouldn't even do that.

The company really has no willingness to help owners of defective Mustang IIIs.

I took a beating and bought a II because it was the quickest way to reproduce some recorded tones for a project I was in the middle of, but that "Fender" on its grill irritates me. I'm done with them.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:10 am
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I evaluated the Champ HD swap as an alternative to the Mustang III (as I've previously mentioned), but these are really two different amps with two different purposes. The champ is a 15W tube amp and can't really compare to a 100W solid state amp for the production of clean sounds with sufficient power overhead at gigging volumes through a 12" speaker. Sooner or later, you need to crank the champ's gain and that introduces an unwanted, if clean, crunch that only higher wattage amps could overcome. So it's a nice little amp for studio work (which is where it has always had a place), but it's not an equivalent alternative for the MIII. The MIII, absent fizz, did produce adequate cleans while moving sufficient masses of air; the champ would almost certainly need to be mic'd for use as a clean acoustic or jazz amp with low-gain settings.

And I certainly would not revert to an MII, which Fender also proposed, without a cash refund for the difference, which they did not.

If someone finds the champ a satisfactory replacement and Fender still offers it, fine. But it's not an equivalent amp. If I'd swapped it, I still would have needed to sell it for something else, at some kind of a loss, although admittedly with a cleaner conscience.

Fender needs to come clean on the Fizz, tell us what it is, make sure prospective buyers are informed, and deal satisfactorily with those affected by it outside a return period, which really means facilitating a refund where a substitute is not satisfactory.

Most of all, they need to fix it.


bborzell wrote:
Pistol...

It occurs to me that your experience with the performance of the III might be representative of more than a few who bought one. I am also believing , more and more, that Fender is successfully banking on the apparently accurate assumption that the vast majority of Mustang III and up owners simply have little or no need for clean sounds.

I think your decision to work with Fender to obtain a like value swap is really the only sensible option for players who are unwilling to live with the fizz artifact. In fact, if this option were made available to all of the folks here who have expressed consistent dissatisfaction, my guess is that this thread would fade into obscurity.

In my view, the reality of the fizz is not as significant to most III and up owners who won't accept the fizz as much as the feeling of being let down by a company who doesn't really have much of a history of letting customers down. It's kinda like waking up in a marriage one morning and realizing that some of the most important elements of the marriage vows that you heard from the girl (or guy) of your dreams turned out to be empty. Marriage counseling or divorce are the choices that come to mind (this analogy begins to get strained if we throw in the swap option).

But, staying with the analogy for as long as we can, it is clear that the counseling path is a dead end as Fender has drawn a line in the sand by saying you get what you pay for. Even divorce seems to be off the table as Fender will not honor the warranty for fizz issues. So, leaving the marriage analogy, a swap for a model that more reflects that which the buyer originally expected to get for his or her money, i.e., an amp that simply produces and augments amplified guitar sounds with out fizzes, is a fair and reasonable resolution, as I see it.

Since there appears to be no shortage of folks who can use the III and above Mustangs for the sort of music they like to play, I am sure that Fender could easily do a simple inspection and release swapped out Mustangs as reconditioned and perhaps this mess would fizz out and go away.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:08 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
And I certainly would not revert to an MII, which Fender also proposed, without a cash refund for the difference, which they did not.


IMO this one simple example says volumes about Fenders willingness to fix the fizz problem, the quality of their customer service and their desire to satisfy their customer ... all of which are poor. Not to mention ... they want to sell customers a defective amp ... allow the customer to trade down ... and pocket the spread due to the difference in price.

Fenders behavior is unethical ... simple as that.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:15 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
And I certainly would not revert to an MII, which Fender also proposed, without a cash refund for the difference, which they did not.


IMO this one simple example says volumes about Fenders willingness to fix the fizz problem, the quality of their customer service and their desire to satisfy their customer ... all of which are poor. Not to mention ... they want to sell customers a defective amp ... allow the customer to trade down ... and pocket the spread due to the difference in price.

Fenders behavior is unethical ... simple as that.

KenB


...you forgot something. They get the amp back, can fix it, and can resell it as refurbished. So, it's a win-win-win for Fender. But, a loss, loss, loss to the customer via a substantial loss of time, a substantial source of great frustration, and a substantially lesser, but cool amp as an exchange, plus shipping fees to the customer.

It seems like almost everybody who used the Mustang USB for recording via Ableton found substantial noise issues (DSP fizz, USB/Display/Connection static), a crippled USB interface (can't use other sound programs while using Ableton and the Mustang input), highly inefficient effect loop if using the head for recording, poor choice of inputs for headphones and AUX considering the effects loop is defeated and not described as such in the manual (can't monitor effect send if using effect return as input from an effect, no DSP if using send as input, and sound is horrible distorted if you put an effect in the aux and play through the V head simultaneously), can't run the effect loop without defeating the DSP, USB won't monitor effect loop alone, and annoyingly loud and slow patch changes.

The technology is antiquated and does not match its description at all. I was shocked as I went through this amp. For me, at every single turn their was some sort of huge compromise in sound quality instead of the opposite, having an old Zoom G9.2tt to compare it to, the Zoom nailing all the Fender tones, plus 70 more, plus all the effects on the Zoom are just plumb pretty with the tube pre-amp. ...the Zoom/Mustang combo should'ah been a match made in Heaven but the V head is not effect friendly at all and has all the problems described above.

I'm the forgiving type and like to see everybody shine! First off, if we can get a camera and scientific equipment to Mars, ...I'm sure we can fix the sound quality issues on the Mustang V if we put our minds to it! What, there's no board or interface that can be replaced that fixes the problem? ...no? okay. Since a lot of people don't mind, great! They're accepting something far less than what was advertised, cool. It's a free country! Others? ...well, we want what was described, not a compromise. We did our part, and then some. It would be cool to have a champ, but that's not what I ordered! I ordered a 150w head, with a DSP, USB, stereo effects loop, an AUX-in, and a headphone/lineout, not a 15 watt, hissy little mono tube amp -- that's not gonna work neither. I'd prefer to send the Mustang back to the seller and get full credit I can apply towards whatever amp will suit my needs for the same price. I'd accept an apology from Fender and call it a day -- nobody's perfect -- let Fender shine with an apology in this case, done.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:21 pm
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It's unfortunate that corporate wonks and lawyers have gotten in the way of what used to be known as customer service and satisfaction. If this were a car, it would have been recalled. But since it's only an amp, Fender, the corporation (as opposed to Fender, the collection of people who have to be embarrassed and frustrated by the corporate policy trying to soft-peddle this clear and obvious defect) has apparently (and in my opinion mistakenly) concluded that any admission of a problem is equivalent to liability for the problem (gee, what a concept) and so no one is officially allowed to admit there is a problem or offer any significant relief to affected customers.

Here's what I would like. A panel of aforementioned corporate wonks and lawyers put on a panel in front of an audience of real professional and amateur musicians, played the short loop sound loop at http://soundcloud.com/user4316001/musta ... range-fizz (and a couple of other available samples) and a simple question from the moderator: Is this what Fender really wants to promote as Fender quality and is its response to complaints evidence of Fender's approach to customer service?

I'm not holding my breath.

KenB5 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
And I certainly would not revert to an MII, which Fender also proposed, without a cash refund for the difference, which they did not.


IMO this one simple example says volumes about Fenders willingness to fix the fizz problem, the quality of their customer service and their desire to satisfy their customer ... all of which are poor. Not to mention ... they want to sell customers a defective amp ... allow the customer to trade down ... and pocket the spread due to the difference in price.

Fenders behavior is unethical ... simple as that.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:51 am
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...one more thing. The 4 button pedal craps out and has to be unplugged and plugged back in. I've had this happen once, and I've read a report of the same problem. I kept quiet to see if somebody else had the same problem due to the rest of the problems and yup, same issue.

The V amp and the 4 button pedal are not gigable nor recording worthy unless you use extensive noise suppression before the guitar input of the V to eliminate fizz, and if you use effects pedals in the effects loop, you bypass the Mustang DSP and you have to use another DSP for amp modeling, and you risk loosing your 4-button pedal live! ...it makes a great static power amp if it proves to be reliable, but that's it at this point. It's a no-go on being effects friendly, it's prone to fatiguing noise, it's not recording friendly at all, and there are reliability issues, and don't knock a knob our you risk breaking the mainboard and then, it's over.

To get full use of a V head w/ another effects pedal, you gotta have 2 V heads and at least two stereo audio interface inputs or 2 cabs and another quality DSP unit with a pre-amp and cabinet modeling if you want quality recordings or to play both heads simultaneously. One head to play the stock DSP through elaborate and expensive noise filters pre-guitar-input to stop the fizz, and one head to run your effects through the effects loop and power amp because you can't run effects via the Mustang DSP.

:shock:

I'm thankful for the zoom or i'd be thoroughly bummed.

...the Zoom has a great feature, you can put the effects loop anywhere in the signal chain, no problem.

...wut was Fender thinking when they released the Mustang 3, 4, & 5???


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