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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:00 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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willmodelisme,so you think i am a psycho for the statement i made?
I have the mustang I and V and i do not feel i got burned yet with my MV,i do not have the fizz problem but i know it may be only
a matter of time before it may happen and can understand how angry and unsatisfied everyone feels about this problem if you have it.

I was not trying to be confrontational with anyone here and only gave my honest opinion about this fizz debate.

Fenders own official statement mentioned that all mustang III-V will eventually develop the fizz problem,so would you also call fender psycho for making there statement?

What do the rest of you guys think? Do you also think i am a psycho for making my statement?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:10 pm
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Correction ,i said: Fenders own official statement mentioned that all mustang III-V will eventually develop the fizz problem.

I believe it was a fender tech that said all mustang III-V amps will eventually develop the fizz problem over time,this was a reply to a member here who posted it on this forum in the past.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:28 am
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Sorry Metalman 50, I didn't mean any mental illness, sorry for my bad English.
I mean psychoses, like a big and unjustified fear. Not sure for the English of that one.
Sorry if that hurt you personally it wasn't done on purpose.

That said, I really appreciate that you edit your post :

Metalman50 wrote:
Correction ,i said: Fenders own official statement mentioned that all mustang III-V will eventually develop the fizz problem.

I believe it was a fender tech that said all mustang III-V amps will eventually develop the fizz problem over time,this was a reply to a member here who posted it on this forum in the past.


You may think I am a binary guy but as it is a non official comment, I have no reason to worry about what any Fenders tech says.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:50 am
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Well a couple weeks into ownership, mine has started to develop the fizz though not through the headphone output. I'm quite bummed about this and considering returning for a Mustang II. Too bad we don't have any hope of a coming fix. :(


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:17 am
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It sounds like people are arguing against points that are completely missed. I'll attempt to clarify a few points....

Mustangs III, IV, and V have some degeree of fizz or will likely develop it. - Fact.

The fizz will render your amp unsuable. - Opinion & Generalization.

There are only a couple of people that I know of who have givin personal testimonials that they played a specific song or a specific style of music and either they or their audience was annoyed by the fizz. This is a beleivable fact, but falls in the realm of isolated incident. In contrast, I've heard many testimonials of people who regularly gig or "play out" with their known fizzers without issues.

The majority of users will either not notice or not be bothered by the fizz. So far, this is proving to be fact. (Just to clarify, this is not a denial of fizz. But it's proof that the fizz being labled as a problematic issue is exagerated.)

Fender advertised Sparkling Clean tone and delivered fizzy tone. - Opinion & Generalization.
(Yes the fizz exists, but the fact is, most users have to go looking for it to find it, and are satisfied with their amps, even on clean settings.)

The sound samples of the fizz that have been posted prove only one thing - that if you set the amp to a clean amp setting and play a single note on a low string and let it ring to the point of decay you can hear fizz. It offers no proof that you can't play the amp under normal conditions with satisfactory results. That's a fact.

The fizz is a manufacturers defect. - Unsubstantiated grey area.
(Because the fact is, there's nothing wrong with any of the individual components and everything is within design specs according to the manufacturer - I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's an unsubstantiated grey area. Good luck proving them wrong.)

Fender's handling of the issue is unethical. - Opinion & Generalization.
(What has Fender done/not done that Peavy, Vox, or Line 6 has done/not done? Again, not arguing for right or wrong, but the fact is, Fender is following an established business model. If you could prove something, you wouldn't be here complaining because the matter would have allready been settled. The fact is, if you push hard enough and talk to the right people within a reasonable time period from which your problem starts, Fender will work with you. You may not get a refund or a fizz free Mustang but you will get options.)

A few people are pissed off at Fender because they expected more from the amp and more from Fender, and it's their right to be pissed and to complain about it. - Fact.

Let the rebuttles begin....


Last edited by Scorpaeon on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:24 am
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mdintx wrote:
Well a couple weeks into ownership, mine has started to develop the fizz though not through the headphone output. I'm quite bummed about this and considering returning for a Mustang II. Too bad we don't have any hope of a coming fix. :(

Hey mdintx, and everyone else....

Have you guys checked out the new Super Champ X2? I looks like it has potential to be the Mustang III killer!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:50 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
mdintx wrote:
Well a couple weeks into ownership, mine has started to develop the fizz though not through the headphone output. I'm quite bummed about this and considering returning for a Mustang II. Too bad we don't have any hope of a coming fix. :(

Hey mdintx, and everyone else....

Have you guys checked out the new Super Champ X2? I looks like it has potential to be the Mustang III killer!


Well, I'm thinking that the GDEC 3 might actually fit my needs better. I can still make recordings and use it for practice running backing tracks. The only downside will be the loss of power.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:38 am
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The SCX2 has USB for recording and it's compatible with FUSE. A 6V6 power section with 16 amp models. It appears to be a Mustang spin off with some nice upgrades. Or a fusion of a Mustang and Champ. Either way I'm looking forward to see the reviews when they start coming in. It could be the answer to the fizz woes - if it doesn't fizz.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:23 am
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Okay, question for Mustang III fizzers: Do you notice a difference between guitars?

I just plugged in a strat type partscaster and didn't get any fizz. I grabbed another guitar, Ibanez semi-hollow, and got fizz. Same settings; basic Twin unmodified, same pickup selection - both have bridge humbuckers, same master volume level on the amp.

Interesting thing is that the partscaster was noisier plugged in but the note rang out clear with no fizz. The Ibanez had less hiss plugged in, but the digital fizz was immediately there. It's not just on the decay.

Have others noticed this?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:49 am
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Scorpaeon wrote:
There are only a couple of people that I know of who have givin personal testimonials that they played a specific song or a specific style of music and either they or their audience was annoyed by the fizz. This is a beleivable fact, but falls in the realm of isolated incident. In contrast, I've heard many testimonials of people who regularly gig or "play out" with their known fizzers without issues.

The majority of users will either not notice or not be bothered by the fizz. So far, this is proving to be fact. (Just to clarify, this is not a denial of fizz. But it's proof that the fizz being labled as a problematic issue is exagerated.)


Well ... we still have a small sample poll that states that 22 out of 50 owners have noticed fizz ... so if ya put any stock in it ... I think it's safe to say you'll notice it.

Whether the owner considers fizz a problem is of course a different matter. I'm sure there are people that will simply ignore it or generally not hear it or be bothered by it because of how they use the amp. For example ... if ya play dirty or fast or in a band setting fizz may not be much of an issue. But it might not be that way to other users ... as an example ... the jazz guys and the clean guys ... and those within that group that just play at home or are learning to play. IMO for THAT user group and similar user groups ... the problem fizz causes for them may not be insignificant and may not be exaggerated.

Scorpaeon wrote:
Yes the fizz exists, but the fact is, most users have to go looking for it to find it, and are satisfied with their amps, even on clean settings.


IMO if ya have a fizzy Mustang ... it will be eventually become apparent ... when that happens ya won't have to go looking for it ... it will find you on it's own.

Scorpaeon wrote:
The sound samples of the fizz that have been posted prove only one thing - that if you set the amp to a clean amp setting and play a single note on a low string and let it ring to the point of decay you can hear fizz. It offers no proof that you can't play the amp under normal conditions with satisfactory results. That's a fact.


IMO that's an over generalization ... IMO it's apparent that fizz can be heard on various clean settings ... multiple note passages ... and all strings at all frets. IMO ... once ya have it ... it's everywhere. It's just that it's generally easier to hear on a clean setting and single low string single note.

Again ... the owner of the amp defines the use of HIS amp ... his "normal" conditions as you call it. If for HIS use the fizz is an issue ... that's all that matters ... no one else's opinion figures into it. The owner defines his use and the owner defines if the amps performance is satisfactory or not ... for his use.

Scorpaeon wrote:
Fender's handling of the issue is unethical. - Opinion & Generalization.


Hey ... we agree ... there's hope for us yet my friend!

My take: although it may appear so ... I don't strongly disagree with Scorpaeon's post ... I merely disagree with the precision of it. I'm sure a fizzy Mustang is a usable amp for many people ... but yet for others ... I'm also sure that a fizzy Mustang is a royal pain and disappointment. For that latter group ... I think they have a valid gripe and I don't disbelieve their conclusions (by inference I'm not saying anyone else does). I'm still of the opinion that if someone plays clean and is considering buying a Mustang ... that it would be wise to buy an MI/MII or buy something else altogether. I'd recommend they stay clear of the MIII-MV until it's clear that the fizz issue has been effectively addressed by Fender.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:51 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
Hey ... we agree ... there's hope for us yet my friend!

Come to the light side KenB!!!! :mrgreen:

KenB5 wrote:
...I'm sure a fizzy Mustang is a usable amp for many people ... but yet for others ... I'm also sure that a fizzy Mustang is a royal pain and disappointment....

Would those "others" be considered... I don't know.... maybe... discerning listeners perhaps?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I'll agree that whether you think the fizz is an issue or you think the fizz is a non-issue... you can spin it in either direction.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:09 pm
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mdintx wrote:
Okay, question for Mustang III fizzers: Do you notice a difference between guitars?

I just plugged in a strat type partscaster and didn't get any fizz. I grabbed another guitar, Ibanez semi-hollow, and got fizz. Same settings; basic Twin unmodified, same pickup selection - both have bridge humbuckers, same master volume level on the amp.

Interesting thing is that the partscaster was noisier plugged in but the note rang out clear with no fizz. The Ibanez had less hiss plugged in, but the digital fizz was immediately there. It's not just on the decay.

Have others noticed this?

For me the fizz is kind of an enigma.

I haven't really noticed a big difference between my Strat and Les Paul. But the Strat's single coil hum does mask it slightly. But what I find curious about my perticular amp is that it seems worse some days and better others.

When I do the test I use the Fender Twin model, no gain, amp volume dimed, no effects, bass middle treble on 5, master volume at a comfortable level. Some days it comes thru very clearly. Other days I pluck the string 5 times and only hear it once or twice. Other days I have to strain to hear it at all.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:38 pm
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Scorpeaon,

Say I have a new HiFi reciever. It sounds good except I notice fizz on a recording has a lot of bass in it. My favorite Mahler and Massive Attack CDs are noticeably fizzy to people who hear my HiFi. It makes a strange unmusical fizzy sound. I guess I should be OK with that too? How can I complain? I should buy Carver if I don't want fizz?

Well pardon me but I think my 2010 guitar amp should be able to reproduce my pure guitar string's signal at least as well as my 1990s Peavey, 2000s Roland, 1990s Fender, 2000s Vox, 1980s Peavey... but it can't. It can't reproduce one single clean string tone cleanly. The amp can't do clean through its speaker. (Edited to clarify: I don't own my MIII any longer, so I shouldn't call it "my" 2010 guitar amp, but Fender assured me that it it still adding fizz to every clean note.)

Since it can't do clean through its own speaker, and Fender admits it's an issue with the output transformer, and it's under a 5-year warranty against defects in parts and manufacturing, and Fender won't give me my money back or the same money's worth of replacement amps, why do you still defend them?

You say "Fender advertised Sparkling Clean tone and delivered fizzy tone" is "Opinion & Generalization". You say "The fizz is a manufacturers defect" is "Unsubstantiated grey area". Well the nice guy from Fender said Mustang IIIs fizz and wouldn't be suitable for clean jazz. He said it's the output transformer, and I could try installing a different one with the same specs. I'd say that makes it "fact", and completely substantiated.

Please, if you don't know what a non-defective guitar amp sounds like clean, or don't care that much about those same clean tones that Leo Fender year by year optimized his amps for, just STFU and let those of us who do know and care get on with trying to embarrass Fender into doing the right thing.

That big red 5-year warranty hang tag is out there selling amps right now. Fizzing Mustang's are defective, and they admit it on the phone, and they seem to have no intention of honoring the warranty. What is your problem with us?


Last edited by DArmstrong55 on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:15 pm
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DArmstrong55 wrote:
Scorpeaon,

Say I have a new HiFi reciever. It sounds good except I notice on a recording has a lot of bass in it. My favorite Mahler and Massive Attack CDs are noticeably fizzy to people who hear my HiFi. It makes a strange unmusical fizzy sound. I guess I should be OK with that too? How can I complain? I should buy Carver if I don't want fizz?

Well pardon me but I think my 2010 guitar amp should be able to reproduce my pure guitar string's signal at least as well as my 1990s Peavey, 2000s Roland, 1990s Fender, 2000s Vox, 1980s Peavey... but it can't. It can't reproduce one single clean string tone cleanly. The amp can't do clean through its speaker. (Edited to clarify: I don't own my MIII any longer, so I shouldn't call it "my" 2010 guitar amp, but Fender assured me that it it still adding fizz to every clean note.)

Since it can't do clean through its own speaker, and Fender admits it's an issue with the output transformer, and it's under a 5-year warranty against defects in parts and manufacturing, and Fender won't give me my money back or the same money's worth of replacement amps, why do you still defend them?

You say "Fender advertised Sparkling Clean tone and delivered fizzy tone" is "Opinion & Generalization". You say "The fizz is a manufacturers defect" is "Unsubstantiated grey area". Well the nice guy from Fender said Mustang IIIs fizz and wouldn't be suitable for clean jazz. He said it's the output transformer, and I could try installing a different one with the same specs. I'd say that makes it "fact", and completely substantiated.

Please, if you don't know what a non-defective guitar amp sounds like clean, or don't care that much about those same clean tones that Leo Fender year by year optimized his amps for, just STFU and let those of us who do know and care get on with trying to embarrass Fender into doing the right thing.

That big red 5-year warranty hang tag is out there selling amps right now. Fizzing Mustang's are defective, and they admit it on the phone, and they seem to have no intention of honoring the warranty. What is your problem with us?


+1,000

Please don't forget the slow and noisy patch changes and the noisy, crippled USB that don't jibe with the following statements:

"The new Fender® Mustang™ amplifier series raises the standard for modern guitar versatility and muscle. Driven by incredibly authentic amp models and a huge bank of built-in effects, Mustang™ amplifiers come equipped with USB connectivity and Fender® FUSE™ software, allowing your musical creativity and imagination to run wild."

When the fizz manifested and the speed of the patch changes weren't fixed via updates and when the noisy, crippled USB section prevented me from seamlessly switching applications, this absolutely lowered the standard for modern guitar. I've played Digitech and Zoom DSP products extensively and the older Digitech and Zoom products are far more advanced than the Mustang DSP. The above statement made by Fender is false and should be removed from the Mustang ad materials and consumers who have these defective amps should get our warranties honored with a fix or a refund.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:00 am
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DArmstrong55 wrote:
... Well the nice guy from Fender said Mustang IIIs fizz and wouldn't be suitable for clean jazz. He said it's the output transformer, and I could try installing a different one with the same specs. I'd say that makes it "fact", and completely substantiated....


That is why I have serious doubt in such a "nice guy" from Fender .
There is NO output transformers in a Mustang III Amp.
It is composed with 3 PCB.
The control where you have the digital potentiometers and switches, the DSP board and the 100W power section driven by a switching power supply.
That switching power supply share the same PCB than the amp section itself.
Thinking that the FIZZ is caused by the switching power supply would be IMO more reasonable.
You can find output transformers in valve amp.

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Last edited by willmodelisme on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:13 am, edited 4 times in total.

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