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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:45 pm
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Here's a question of ethics for you guys--especially the ones poo-poo'ing the fizz issue:

If Fender doesn't come up with a fix in a couple of months, I'm going to put my MIII fizzer on Craigslist. Do I disclose the fizz to the prospective buyer? After all, Fender didn't disclose it to me, and they still don't disclose it in any sales materials.

The fizz is pretty obvious on every clean setting. Do I just let the prospective buyer fiddle with the amp to his heart's content, and if he doesn't notice it, take the money and run?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:52 pm
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willmodelisme wrote:
But you must admit that you are bit strong saying this is a debacle. :wink:


@willmodelisme

Nope ...

IMO Fender has handled the problem poorly ... and when compared to other equipment ... I can't say that I've seen more dissatisfaction expressed over a product than fizzy Mustangs. Sure ... there's a good deal of good press for the Mustang ... lots of people are satisfied ... but compared to other products there seems to be a significant number of complaints about the Mustang and about Fender. I think Fender left the high ground when in their official response they blamed the problem on "discerning listeners".

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:32 pm
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This was precisely my issue, and why I took a $100 loss by returning it to the vendor with full disclosure after the return period rather than unloading it on some unsuspecting soul on Craigslist. I wouldn't sell what I consider to be a defective unit to someone even if they didn't notice or didn't care. But that's just me, I guess.

People who don't have problems with their stangs and think those of us complaining ought to get over it should consider: if Fender is willing to throw a few customers here under the bus, what makes you so sure that the next customers Fender throws under the bus there might not be YOU? We now know Fender's corporate ethic: If it's only a few people with a legitimate (by Fender's own admission) complaint, ignore it and it will go away. And don't forget to insult them by badmouthing them as overdiscerning on your way out.

cormorant wrote:
Here's a question of ethics for you guys--especially the ones poo-poo'ing the fizz issue:

If Fender doesn't come up with a fix in a couple of months, I'm going to put my MIII fizzer on Craigslist. Do I disclose the fizz to the prospective buyer? After all, Fender didn't disclose it to me, and they still don't disclose it in any sales materials.

The fizz is pretty obvious on every clean setting. Do I just let the prospective buyer fiddle with the amp to his heart's content, and if he doesn't notice it, take the money and run?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:55 pm
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cormorant wrote:
MusicalCircuitry wrote:
I did just notice a post over at TGP mentioning a new Super Champ, the Super Champ X2! It mostly looks the same as the original SCXD, but now has USB and Fuse access, so I imagine the models have been revamped with Fender's newer DSP technology. Also, there is an all new head version, which will be a really nice option for some people, since many complaints about the SCXD concerned the 10" speaker, cabinet rattle, etc.


It looks like you can only select one effect at a time, and that includes reverb--i.e you can have reverb OR one of the other effects, but not both.

Anyone know if that's right?

For on-board controls, it looks like it will be just like the SCXD, which had a few combo FX - reverb + delay, chorus + delay, and chorus + reverb, but yeah, for the most part, one at a time. However, with the new USB/FUSE functionality, I imagine you'd be able to dial in more than one using FUSE somehow.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:35 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
@Scorpaeon

Hey ... don't blame the jazz guy ... or anyone else that plays clean.

I don't blame the jazz guy. I feel bad for him. And I feel sorry that he can't enjoy the awesomeness of the thousands of great tones that the amp is capable of delivering.
KenB5 wrote:
They (assumedly) bought the amp partially based on Fenders reputation for clean tones and based on the marketing of the Mustang that Fender uses ... after all ... their site gives lots and lots of examples of Mustang clean tones ... and they are good fizz free clips. Who woulda thought Fender would produce an amp that for many people produces lousy cleans ... and who woulda thought Fender would take a guys hard earned money and then stiff 'em by turning their back on 'em when they complained of a fizzy amp? To use your analogy ... when they bought their Mustang they thought they were in the "boat" ... but it's evident in this case that Fender built a lot of crummy boats.

KenB

Well I guess I'm not as upset over it as some because, with the exception of a few settings, I CAN get a good clean tone out of my MIII. And even on the particularly fizzy ones, it's very hard to detect when played in a musical context. Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones, but I think its more accurate to say that there are really only a few unlucky ones who have a real beef. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the evidence shows that the "boat" floats. It floats real good. I just don't see it as a major issue when you use a little perspective.

brucefulton wrote:
Check youtube. Take a guess at how many vids with obvious Fender tie-ins tout the clean tones for jazz and acoustic. Fender says it models, among others, the Twin, a classic clean-tone amp used by jazz and acoustic artists. Ever hear a twin that fizzes? Neither have I. But the Mustang III does. It's not me who's missing the boat here. I bought in on the strength of the claim that it modeled the twin and the numerous reviews and demos on Youtube and other sites demo-ing clean jazz tones. If it can't model the twin, it's false advertising. What really sucks is that the fizz may not appear until after a vendor's return period has lapsed and the buyer is stuck. You must be thinking of a different boat.

Funny, I still have not found a sample of what one might consider an "unusable" or "annoying" clean tone due to fizz when playing music rather than single notes. Not being a smartass here, I'd genuinely love to hear it if someone can produce it. Because I just can't make it happen on my MIII.

DArmstrong55 wrote:
@scorpaeon, suppose the amp came with a rip in the speaker cone that buzzed on some notes. I guess that would just make it unsuitable for my "particular niche" too, but would you see that as *my* problem? I've had a lot of amps that didn't suit some of my particular niches, but I think this situation was different.

Well a ripped cone would definitely be a Fender problem. I'm just trying to keep it in perspective. The amp's versatility is it's selling point. If you can't find your niche somewhere within that versatility that really sucks, because its a great amp for so many people. But if you are a niche player maybe you should stick with a niche amp.

InkStained wrote:
Fizzing or not -- and I really don't like it -- these amps offer a lot for not a lot of money. When I want true blackface clean, I play my Princeton.

An honest perspective. Thank you sir.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:40 pm
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@cormorant,
Like brucefulton, I took a loss by trading it in at the store (and told the store my issue with it) so whoever bought it would have a 30-day return period. If I had used Craigslist, I would have told potential buyers my issue, and that would have slowed the sale and/or lowered the amount I'd be able to get. I think it would be bad karma to do it any other way.

By trading it to the store I lost more, dollar-wise, but saved time and energy. I'm lucky to be able to afford that choice in this instance.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:31 pm
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So, your mustang doesn't fizz, or doesn't fizz badly. Five weeks after receipt of my mustang III, I played the Tommy Emmanuel version of "And So it Goes" for my wife, a song I had played two weeks prior to her delight and satisfaction, and asked her what she thought now. She thought it sounded horrible and asked what was wrong with the amp. I didn't record it. But it is an arrangement with long sustained over-ringing tones and that's what makes it a beautiful interpretation. Which was totally fouled by the MIII fizz, which developed after a month of satisfactory performance. And that's just one example of many with actual, real songs in actual, real performance situations.

Your MIII apparently doesn't do that. Mine didn't either for the first five weeks. The fact that you can't reproduce it doesn't mean that others can't, and you have no experience with fizzing amps, apparently. Which doesn't mean that some number of amps aren't unplayable and unusable. There is nothing funny about this. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Fender acknowledges fizz. Why are you having such a difficult time with what Fender has confirmed?

Scorpaeon wrote:
Funny, I still have not found a sample of what one might consider an "unusable" or "annoying" clean tone due to fizz when playing music rather than single notes. Not being a smartass here, I'd genuinely love to hear it if someone can produce it. Because I just can't make it happen on my MIII.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:41 am
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Hi,
i got a new Mustang III from Casale Bauer (Fender distributor in Italy) about at half october..

i can say that the fizz that i experienced in the precedent (date of production : february 2011) with clean sounds is actually disapperared.. the new one was made in april 2011.

i had notice instead that could be some problems of fizz or better of a strange modulated phaser-like sound with the overdriven sounds particularly when the amp sound is more overdriven by overdrive or fuzz effect... last day i had the chance to try another guitar with a friend of mine (a guitar teacher) and he wasn't able to detect that problem with his Les Paul Custom (a vintage guitar) ..
it is possible that the phenomenon i exprerienced was caused, and particularly earable playing single note sustained (for example on 6th string , natural harmonic at 12th fret), by humbuckers too much near the strings ...
i have to say that some month ago i changed the string gauge from 0.95 to 0.10 because i wanted to improve the sustain on my Yamaha SG800 (a vintage that doesn't shine so much for what concerning sustain) and the guitar shopper made also an approximative regulation of the truss-rod bar.. to restore the correct curvature of the neck..
for the moment i have raise the distance between strings and pickups and it seems that the phaser-like modulation is very attenuated...

apart this, i have also noticed that no matter what version of firmware i install , there is a problem with the parameter Octave on the fuzz effect (stomp box section).
I mean that when i got the new amp on october , in the first days the shifting of one octave caused by that knob was effective particularly with the level at 10 (just about the sound shifted one octave up) ... then and at today that octaver effect doesn't work at all even if i put it all the way up .. i can't hear any difference between the dry sound and the wet sound..

Has someone notice that problem too? i suppose that in some way it could be originate from the same cause of the fizz problem that most users are experiencing...
what you think?

thanks
Dimitri


Last edited by loshamano on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:43 am
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cormorant wrote:
Here's a question of ethics for you guys--especially the ones poo-poo'ing the fizz issue:

If Fender doesn't come up with a fix in a couple of months, I'm going to put my MIII fizzer on Craigslist. Do I disclose the fizz to the prospective buyer? After all, Fender didn't disclose it to me, and they still don't disclose it in any sales materials.

The fizz is pretty obvious on every clean setting. Do I just let the prospective buyer fiddle with the amp to his heart's content, and if he doesn't notice it, take the money and run?


Thanks for your replies, brucefulton and DArmstrong55.

I'm still interested in having someone who has said the fizz is not a big deal--or even one of the Fender mods--tell me that it's OK to not disclose the fizz to a potential buyer of my MIII on Craigslist, because it's a normal and acceptable part of the amp, not a defect, and does not interfere with its intended use.

In other words, I can act as does Fender along with it's entire chain of distribution.

Is this the right thing to do? Or am I potentially deceiving an unwitting buyer and taking his money under false pretenses?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:22 pm
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I was thinking seriously about buying a mustang lll but this issue stopped me cold.....too bad as its a good concept, I have a gdec 3 thirty and love that, It has excellent tone available. I wonder if you affected players could get a class action lawsuit going. This is a big issue.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:55 pm
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cormorant wrote:
cormorant wrote:
Here's a question of ethics for you guys--especially the ones poo-poo'ing the fizz issue:

If Fender doesn't come up with a fix in a couple of months, I'm going to put my MIII fizzer on Craigslist. Do I disclose the fizz to the prospective buyer? After all, Fender didn't disclose it to me, and they still don't disclose it in any sales materials.

The fizz is pretty obvious on every clean setting. Do I just let the prospective buyer fiddle with the amp to his heart's content, and if he doesn't notice it, take the money and run?


Thanks for your replies, brucefulton and DArmstrong55.

I'm still interested in having someone who has said the fizz is not a big deal--or even one of the Fender mods--tell me that it's OK to not disclose the fizz to a potential buyer of my MIII on Craigslist, because it's a normal and acceptable part of the amp, not a defect, and does not interfere with its intended use.

In other words, I can act as does Fender along with it's entire chain of distribution.

Is this the right thing to do? Or am I potentially deceiving an unwitting buyer and taking his money under false pretenses?


You're guilty if you sell it because of the artifact and you don't mention it to the buyer. Totally uncool.

The guys who honestly don't think it's a big deal and aren't selling it because of the artifact are in the clear if they don't mention it.

Basically, if you take the high and mighty road you need to stay on it.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:20 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
So, your mustang doesn't fizz, or doesn't fizz badly. Five weeks after receipt of my mustang III, I played the Tommy Emmanuel version of "And So it Goes" for my wife, a song I had played two weeks prior to her delight and satisfaction, and asked her what she thought now. She thought it sounded horrible and asked what was wrong with the amp. I didn't record it. But it is an arrangement with long sustained over-ringing tones and that's what makes it a beautiful interpretation. Which was totally fouled by the MIII fizz, which developed after a month of satisfactory performance. And that's just one example of many with actual, real songs in actual, real performance situations.

Your MIII apparently doesn't do that. Mine didn't either for the first five weeks. The fact that you can't reproduce it doesn't mean that others can't, and you have no experience with fizzing amps, apparently. Which doesn't mean that some number of amps aren't unplayable and unusable. There is nothing funny about this. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Fender acknowledges fizz. Why are you having such a difficult time with what Fender has confirmed?

I've said at least several times in my past posts that I believe the fizz is a real issue. And I think its completely plausible that some amps have it worse than others. And I don't doubt your experience with your amp one bit. And I understand how it can be very disappointing when you have expectations of something and it falls short. BUT, however, comma, (and this is based on my opinion that I've formed by weighing all the evidence that I have available to me which I admit is pretty much just my own experience and things I've looked up on the internet) I believe that reports of the amp being rendered useless and or defective because of the fizz have been exaggerated.

I'm not out to prove or disprove anything here. I'm just trying to be the voice of reasonable perspective. Because I hate to see guys like koni come in here and make a knee jerk reaction because he got swept up in mob mentality.

Fender has confirmed the fizz and released an official statement. Fender said (and I'm paraphrasing): it's an artifact that occurs on some settings and its within normal design parameters and most people won't notice it but some people might be bothered by it.

Is it a fair statement? Well if you are one who is bothered by the fizz, of course you're not going to like it. But that's not the question. Is it a fair statement?

I believe that the fizz is not so much a defect, but a byproduct of cheap Chinese components trying to power DSP algorithms which are known to produce artifacts in certain situations regardless. Mustangs are not the only modelers that produce undesirable artifacts. Are people threatening lawsuits against Peavy, digitech, etc? No, they just decide they don't like the product and move on to something else that better suits their needs. Call it a poor design choice but not a manufacturer's defect.

But even when you take into account my opinion, your opinion, Fender's opinion, and any evidence that you or I wish to present on either side of the fence... at the end of the day it is what it is...

...a relatively cheap modeling amp that performs well in MOST situations for MOST people.

I think that's a fair assessment. And I can't think of many other amps that can claim the same. But by all means, please judge for yourself.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:13 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
I've said at least several times in my past posts that I believe the fizz is a real issue. And I think its completely plausible that some amps have it worse than others. And I don't doubt your experience with your amp one bit. And I understand how it can be very disappointing when you have expectations of something and it falls short. BUT, however, comma, (and this is based on my opinion that I've formed by weighing all the evidence that I have available to me which I admit is pretty much just my own experience and things I've looked up on the internet) I believe that reports of the amp being rendered useless and or defective because of the fizz have been exaggerated.

I'm not out to prove or disprove anything here. I'm just trying to be the voice of reasonable perspective. Because I hate to see guys like koni come in here and make a knee jerk reaction because he got swept up in mob mentality.

Fender has confirmed the fizz and released an official statement. Fender said (and I'm paraphrasing): it's an artifact that occurs on some settings and its within normal design parameters and most people won't notice it but some people might be bothered by it.

Is it a fair statement? Well if you are one who is bothered by the fizz, of course you're not going to like it. But that's not the question. Is it a fair statement?

I believe that the fizz is not so much a defect, but a byproduct of cheap Chinese components trying to power DSP algorithms which are known to produce artifacts in certain situations regardless. Mustangs are not the only modelers that produce undesirable artifacts. Are people threatening lawsuits against Peavy, digitech, etc? No, they just decide they don't like the product and move on to something else that better suits their needs. Call it a poor design choice but not a manufacturer's defect.

But even when you take into account my opinion, your opinion, Fender's opinion, and any evidence that you or I wish to present on either side of the fence... at the end of the day it is what it is...

...a relatively cheap modeling amp that performs well in MOST situations for MOST people.

I think that's a fair assessment. And I can't think of many other amps that can claim the same. But by all means, please judge for yourself.


@Scorpaeon

For people that own fizzy Mustangs ... the point for them is ... that the performance of the amp is a disappointment ... and for them it may well be unuseable for their purposes ... and their opinions of the amp are not exaggerated. I'm sure the Mustang series is very successful and other people ... especially those that play dirty ... assumedly think the amp is fine for their purpose and would agree with you ... but based on the feedback in this forum ...IMO this amp should be avoided by anyone who likes to play clean.

IMO the amp is defective ... either via design, manufacture or software ... simply based on the fact that for those folk who play clean ... the amp doesn't perform as Fender has represented it in their advertising. After all ... Fender didn't say "keep in mind it's a cheap amp when you judge it's performance" ... they gave good clean fizz free sound clips and said "it sounds like this". Had Fender not marketed the amp as they have and still do ... I'd be more willing to cut Fender some slack.

IMO making excuses for the amp by saying it's cheap and that most people like the Mustang ... just serves to devalue the opinions of those that own fizzy Mustangs and because of it ... wish they didn't.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:23 pm
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Scorpaeon wrote:
And I don't doubt your experience with your amp one bit.
Scorpaeon wrote:
I believe that reports of the amp being rendered useless and or defective because of the fizz have been exaggerated.

So which is it?

If players and listeners hear a Fender amp that is advertised as delivering "vintage Fender sparkle" and ask "what's wrong with the amp", well that's not good is it?

Scorpaeon wrote:
Call it a poor design choice but not a manufacturer's defect.

I'm sticking to manufacturer's defect, specifically in the power amp. The excellent DSP algorithms are amplified nicely all the way through the preamp, hence the complete lack of fizz through the headphone jack or USB. I think I'm being quite fair. Mob mentality? Please.

Scorpaeon wrote:
...a relatively cheap modeling amp that performs well in MOST situations for MOST people.


Quick question: In your opinion, at what dollar amount do I get the right to be upset that Fender sold me an amp with a 5-year warranty against manufacturing defects, and won't make it right when the amp starts making annoying noises it shouldn't?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:36 pm
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DArmstrong55 wrote:
Quick question: In your opinion, at what dollar amount do I get the right to be upset that Fender sold me an amp with a 5-year warranty against manufacturing defects, and won't make it right when the amp starts making annoying noises it shouldn't?


+1

KenB


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