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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:31 pm
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joebeets wrote:
I read about the fizz, went to my local dealer, tried a Mustang 3, no fizz so I bought it. I have a month to return it so I'm hoping if it's going to fizz, it does it in the first month. Production date 09/20/2011


I know it's no big deal, but I see people writing month>day>year for production date. I believe it is month>year only, unless all of the amps were made on the 20th of every month. :D

Sorry, just my OCD kicking me in the head ... :?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:36 pm
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The sticker says what it says.

guitarordinaire wrote:
joebeets wrote:
I read about the fizz, went to my local dealer, tried a Mustang 3, no fizz so I bought it. I have a month to return it so I'm hoping if it's going to fizz, it does it in the first month. Production date 09/20/2011


I know it's no big deal, but I see people writing month>day>year for production date. I believe it is month>year only, unless all of the amps were made on the 20th of every month. :D

Sorry, just my OCD kicking me in the head ... :?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:34 pm
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Right. And I said what I said.
My sticker says 112010. Not 11/20/10.
At first glance I would think that meant November 20, 2010 except for the fact that everyone has xx20xx which tells me that it is in the month>year format.
... unless they were all made on the 20th of each month ...

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:11 pm
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I just bought my III yesterday and I don't hear this fizz people have been talking about. It had firmware 1.3 now 1.8 and I'm happy with the amp.

Update: Upon reading more of this thread, I've found that the fizz can develop over time. I guess I may have spoken too soon. The amp's manufacture date is November 2010.


Last edited by normhart on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:19 am
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Rockcat wrote:
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I am not confident that amp techs or engineers who don't work for Fender will be any more successful in pinpointing the root cause than the Fender folks have.


A competent professional, qualified engineer should have no more difficulty in identifying the problem than a Fender technician. It's not that Fender can't find the cause - it's simply that they don't wish to disclose it (a point I believe you raised in your post) almost certainly for fear of product recall/rectification costs.

Quote:
In my view, the root cause is the use of components that have either a high failure rate, a wide range of performance outcomes or both.


I certainly agree that a component issue is a prime suspect, based on current information. But as yet we still have no independence conclusive evidence. If we can get a fizzing amp examined, we may get some answers.

As yet, I'm still awaiting to hear from anyone with a fizzing amp in or near Napa, San Francisco that is agreeable to having their amp examined.

Rich :wink:


The vast majority of my skepticism about pursuing an alternative to Fender's conclusion lies with my sense that Fender has already walked away from this issue. However, stepping back a bit and considering the potential for discovering a verifiable component performance problem raises an element into the discussion that could upset the balance of the body of knowledge as in who is in possession of that information that could shed light on both the existence of a sub par component as well as the practicality of fixes, both though production as well as retro fixes.

I still doubt that Fender would budge unless what was discovered was both conclusive and blatant (as in demonstrating that Fender could or should have known that a fix to eliminate the fizz was indeed possible).

I live close to Napa, but I don't own a fizzing Mustang. I hope someone can and will step up with a fizzer.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:28 am
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bborzell wrote:
I still doubt that Fender would budge unless what was discovered was both conclusive and blatant (as in demonstrating that Fender could or should have known that a fix to eliminate the fizz was indeed possible).


Agreed - & that's EXACTLY why an independent examination by a qualified, competent tech is essential, as without such evidence there's no where to go. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:55 am
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Rockcat wrote:
Quote:
I am not confident that amp techs or engineers who don't work for Fender will be any more successful in pinpointing the root cause than the Fender folks have.


A competent professional, qualified engineer should have no more difficulty in identifying the problem than a Fender technician. It's not that Fender can't find the cause - it's simply that they don't wish to disclose it (a point I believe you raised in your post) almost certainly for fear of product recall/rectification costs.

Quote:
In my view, the root cause is the use of components that have either a high failure rate, a wide range of performance outcomes or both.


I certainly agree that a component issue is a prime suspect, based on current information. But as yet we still have no independence conclusive evidence. If we can get a fizzing amp examined, we may get some answers.

As yet, I'm still awaiting to hear from anyone with a fizzing amp in or near Napa, San Francisco that is agreeable to having their amp examined.

Rich :wink:


Rich,
may be it would help to know approximately, what such an examination would cost.

Philippe
P.S.: I'd be prepared to have my MIII checked, but I live in Europe...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:14 am
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It has been mentioned several times (and I confirm that for my MIII), that the fizz is not present in the phones signal. Is there anybody invalidating this assumption?

If this is correct, then I suppose we can exclude any cause in the DSP signal processing, which is consistent with the fact that the problem does not seem to be fixable with a firmware update.
This suggests the problem must be in the final part of the signal path: power amp => speaker.
The different voltages do not appear to be relevant, since both US and European models do fizz.
Finally, since the MII does not fizz, the problem could possibly be isolated to be in those components in the final part of the signal path that differ between MII and MIII, i.e. the speaker and possibly some (but probably not all) parts of the power amp.

If my above analysis is correct, identifying the exact cause of the problem by an external engineer as proposed by Rockcat would appear to be quite realistic. It might not be sufficient to motivate Fender to change their policy but it could allow MIII owners to have their device fixed on their own (I would be prepared to do that).

Philippe


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:51 pm
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Quote:
Rich,
may be it would help to know approximately, what such an examination would cost.


No charge re my friend near Napa, San Francisco Bay area. I don't have engineer contacts on Europe unfortunately.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:38 am
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Rockcat,
I wish I weren't on the east coast. Question: Is it your impression that the fizzing is mainly an issue at low volumes? It seems to me that the fizz stops being an issue by the time the master volume is around 7. (Everything in the room is rattling by then, of course.)

If the music-to-fizz ratio is OK at high volumes, I'd be tempted to try an attenuator to get the room level down for home playing.

I'm also tempted to just open the thing up and re-flow every solder connection I can see just for the heck of it, but then I'd have a hard time selling it later even if I didn't wreck it outright.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:05 am
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Hi there, first time on this forum...

I was about to get me a Mustang III, I was completly sure that this was the amp I wanted, but after reading all about this "fizz" problem I'm tempted to try some other brands.

All I see is the people who have the problem, but what's the real rate of "fizzing amps" vs "non-fizzing amps"?

Is the chance of having a "fizzing amp" that big that it's better to avoid it for now?

The problem is that I can't try the amp cause I'm buying online and it's a really long trip from the little subtropical island where I live to the shop (more than 4000 kilometers). I can always return it, but there's a lot of time and paperwork involved.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:42 pm
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icedfiend wrote:
All I see is the people who have the problem, but what's the real rate of "fizzing amps" vs "non-fizzing amps"?

Is the chance of having a "fizzing amp" that big that it's better to avoid it for now?


@icedfiend

I doubt anyone knows what percentage of Mustangs fizz ... after all they're not all reported here or to Fender. But when you see the posts as in this thread ... I'd assume where there's smoke there's fire. Fender has also taken the position that fizz is within spec ... and what does that tell ya about the their expectation that the amp fizzes and how Fender is likely to handle it? Too risky to buy one IMO.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:28 pm
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I really encourage Mustang owners, fizz AND non fizzing to post on the little "survey" I made: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=64959

Just because like you icedfiend, it will be great to have an idea on how big is the issue.

Many thanks to you guys.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:09 pm
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KenB5 wrote:
@icedfiend

I doubt anyone knows what percentage of Mustangs fizz ... after all they're not all reported here or to Fender. But when you see the posts as in this thread ... I'd assume where there's smoke there's fire. Fender has also taken the position that fizz is within spec ... and what does that tell ya about the their expectation that the amp fizzes and how Fender is likely to handle it? Too risky to buy one IMO.

KenB


Too bad... i was really interested in this particular amp...

Can anyone point me where to look for the reponse from Fender about this matter? I can't spend too much time reading the forums...


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:18 pm
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icedfiend wrote:
Can anyone point me where to look for the reponse from Fender about this matter?
http://www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203


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