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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:30 am
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cormorant wrote:
[...]If in fact the majority of MIII's don't fizz, then why isn't Fender fixing or replacing the ones that do? This is a serious consumer protection question.[...]


Let's not get too carried away here.

In the U.S. at least Fender accepts returns if the amp does not suit your purpose; I've seen attestations (in this thread even) from users who purchased and returned/exchanged multiple amps trying to find one that worked for them (sans fizz). So, Fender isn't really trying to shaft anyone with this, and it seems to me that consumers have a reasonable recourse.

Rockcat himself purchased an MIII and found it wasn't suitable for his needs (for a different reason), and once he figured out that a "fix" wasn't in the immediate future, he returned the amp, found whatever better alternative he could, and moved on.

PITA


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:27 am
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PITA wrote:
cormorant wrote:
[...]If in fact the majority of MIII's don't fizz, then why isn't Fender fixing or replacing the ones that do? This is a serious consumer protection question.[...]


Let's not get too carried away here.

In the U.S. at least Fender accepts returns if the amp does not suit your purpose; I've seen attestations (in this thread even) from users who purchased and returned/exchanged multiple amps trying to find one that worked for them (sans fizz). So, Fender isn't really trying to shaft anyone with this, and it seems to me that consumers have a reasonable recourse.

Rockcat himself purchased an MIII and found it wasn't suitable for his needs (for a different reason), and once he figured out that a "fix" wasn't in the immediate future, he returned the amp, found whatever better alternative he could, and moved on.

PITA


FYI--I brought my MIII to an authorized Fender service center about three months ago, and the next week they sent it back to me untouched saying that Fender told them they had no solution for the fizz, and were currently doing nothing about it. There was no replacement--not even an offer of one.

I've been working under the assumption that Fender did this because they all fizz (or eventually will). Now we are hearing from many owners that their amps do not, and have never, fizzed.

What I want to know from Fender is, do they all fizz or not? Because if they do not all fizz, I want to go through as many MIII's as it takes to find a good one.

I can't believe that Fender would continue to let this dissatisfaction go on if the answer was as simple as exchanging amps. If there is nothing that can be done, I can live with that. What I can't live with, is having an amp with a curable defect that Fender won't address because they simply choose to marginalize the problem.

I called the warranty center back two weeks ago to see if there were any updates from Fender and the answer was none.

FENDER: ARE THERE ANY MIII'S THAT DO NOT, AND WILL NOT, FIZZ?


It's that simple.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:52 pm
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Fender has stated "We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers."

Just curious ...

Has anyone sat down with their fizzy Mustang and tried to verify if Fenders statement could be true ... by trying several different settings with a LARGE variety of different guitars and cords? I'm talking ... one fizzy Mustang ... tested on several different settings ... using 20/30/50/etc (the more the better) guitars and cords. Seems to me if such a test could be done then that would add one more arrow to the quiver of Rich's (Rockcat) endeavor.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:41 pm
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Oh, please. If there is any moderating to be done, it should be with respect to those who cast ad hominem attacks on the veracity of others who post here.

Fender knows what they said. Point 1, the manager of the warranty center was told by his internal technical contact when I demonstrated the problem (much to his surprise, and on his store model as well as mine) that they all fizz. Other people were present at that phone call, and "they all fizz" is a direct quote from the dealer's internal tech contact.

Second, Fender wouldn't replace mine with a non-fizzing model because the consumer rep I talked to at the Phoenix office also said they all do it and he couldn't replace mine with one that doesn't fizz because they were all susceptible to it. He offered instead to swap it out for a champ HD, but that's a practice/recording amp, not a gigging amp, at 15W instead of 100W.

Now, whether they actually all do fizz is a matter of debate. Mine didn't for the first month, so clearly they don't all fizz. But Fender's position is that they all fizz and that it is within design specs, which is the basis for their denial of warranty claims for amps that don't fizz on receipt but do eventually start to fizz. "They all fizz." Even Fender's official statement doesn't say that only some of them fizz. It says that under certain conditions and settings, there is a sound they don't think is important enough to do anything about.

Because my amp was beyond the return period, I had to use that info, verified by my vendor, to even get a return. And at that, I lost 1/3 in shipping charges.

You can bet your next paycheck that Fender monitors and moderates this thread. If they want to dispute any of my statements, they're certainly free to do so. In the meantime, be very careful about casting aspersions on my veracity or credibility.

willmodelisme wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
Two separate sources from Fender (dealer tech and consumer relations) in personal phone conversations both said that, "they all fizz." That really is a direct quote. ...
If you need true and real "clean" and the samples of fizz widely posted bother you, then you really have to look for another solution. The Fender consumer relations rep I spoke with conceded that the Mustang III-V may not be suitable for guitarists looking for classic clean sounds, e.g. from twin or deluxe.


I think that Fender should start thinking to moderate this thread.
I seriously doubt the truthfulness of your statement.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:22 pm
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There was no clean setting I could dial in that did not demonstrate fizz on my amp, and this was replicated at a warranty center with their cords and guitars. Further, their own amp demonstrated fizz when dialing in a clean sound.

By clean sound, I mean selecting either fender twin or fender deluxe, no effects including no reverb, setting pre to 2-3 or so, setting post to 7 or so, and adjusting master to any volume level, with guitar vol pot at either max or backed off. Once you hear the fizz, you can't unhear it. And that's a quote from a manager at the warranty service I went through. It's an over/undertone that demonstrates an obvious envelope effect on decay. If you shred, you'll never notice it. Play Tommy Emmanuel's version of "And so it goes" emulating an acoustic guitar on a clean setting and it's painful and ugly.

I hope you're not suggesting that I should have to buy some random guitar with some odd combination of cables and such and dial in some sound I don't like, just to avoid fizz. I have a recent Fender MIM jag with quality cables. No combination of clean settings and guitar settings that I could find would eliminate the problem.

When my wife, who listened to the amp when I first got it and thought it sounded nice, asked what the problem was after I told her I was having what I thought was a warranty problem, I dialed in a clean sound and played And So It Goes for her. I believe her comment was something along the lines of, "That's terrible, send it back."

Fender confirms there is an issue that they think they understand but cannot or will not fix. What Fender doesn't seem to acknowledge, that I think is critical, is that these amps may possibly deteriorate over time. It is not simply a matter of people not hearing it at first. In my case, it really did get bad after using it for some time.

KenB5 wrote:
Fender has stated "We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers."

Just curious ...

Has anyone sat down with their fizzy Mustang and tried to verify if Fenders statement could be true ... by trying several different settings with a LARGE variety of different guitars and cords? I'm talking ... one fizzy Mustang ... tested on several different settings ... using 20/30/50/etc (the more the better) guitars and cords. Seems to me if such a test could be done then that would add one more arrow to the quiver of Rich's (Rockcat) endeavor.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:03 pm
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My III still hasn't developed a fizz....


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:20 pm
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brucefulton wrote:
I hope you're not suggesting that I should have to buy some random guitar with some odd combination of cables and such and dial in some sound I don't like, just to avoid fizz.


@brucefulton Heck no ... I'm not suggesting that at all ... my post wasn't directed at you or anyone else specifically ... but in effect ... that's what Fender told us in Loren Howard's post:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

"We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers."

And the above has also been mentioned in two separate replies by Matt Davey of Fender to Rockcat.

IMO in these statements Fender is telling us ...
1. That "under CERTAIN combined conditions" fizz was produced ... without specifying what those conditions are
2. Assumedly ... OTHER "certain combined conditions" don't produce fizz ... without specifying those conditions as well

My hunch ... and it's just a hunch ... is that fizzy amps will fizz to one degree or another under all settings and conditions .... including different guitars and cords. But ... I can't back it up ... and I haven't heard of anyone doing a comprehensive test of a fizzy amp using different settings and a large variety of guitars and cords ... so as far as I know no one has disproven Loren Howard's or Matt Davey's statements.

It also seems to me that Fender is slowly getting caught up in their underwear in that we're beginning to hear differing answers to questions regarding fizz ... as an example ... the Howard/Davey replies vs your warranty center experience and your experience with the consumer rep at the Phoenix office.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:41 pm
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If there are any settings, adjustments or equipment modifications that would eliminate the fizz issue and still provide desired clean tones, Fender was not able to suggest what they might be. I suspect that if Fender knew of any possible way to eliminate the problem, they would let us know. If Fender knows what "combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers," I'd like to know. Which of my playing techniques are my fault?

KenB5 wrote:
brucefulton wrote:
I hope you're not suggesting that I should have to buy some random guitar with some odd combination of cables and such and dial in some sound I don't like, just to avoid fizz.


@brucefulton Heck no ... I'm not suggesting that at all ... my post wasn't directed at you or anyone else specifically ... but in effect ... that's what Fender told us in Loren Howard's post:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=59203

"We researched the issue and found that under certain combined conditions, using certain settings and playing techniques, an artifact can be produced in Mustang III, IV and V amplifiers."

And the above has also been mentioned in two separate replies by Matt Davey of Fender to Rockcat.

IMO in these statements Fender is telling us ...
1. That "under CERTAIN combined conditions" fizz was produced ... without specifying what those conditions are
2. Assumedly ... OTHER "certain combined conditions" don't produce fizz ... without specifying those conditions as well

My hunch ... and it's just a hunch ... is that fizzy amps will fizz to one degree or another under all settings and conditions .... including different guitars and cords. But ... I can't back it up ... and I haven't heard of anyone doing a comprehensive test of a fizzy amp using different settings and a large variety of guitars and cords ... so as far as I know no one has disproven Loren Howard's or Matt Davey's statements.

It also seems to me that Fender is slowly getting caught up in their underwear in that we're beginning to hear differing answers to questions regarding fizz ... as an example ... the Howard/Davey replies vs your warranty center experience and your experience with the consumer rep at the Phoenix office.

KenB


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:02 am
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Fender would be unwise to moderate this thread. As it has developed, the overriding aspect of the thread is that nothing is certain. It is smart to let this thread go on with dueling fizz opinions.

Some people hear a fizz under certain conditions and others do not. Fender has acknowledged this fact and they have stated that any unwanted artifacts are within the design specs for amps of this price point. They have also, by early candid observations made by well meaning service reps on the phone with me and others who have reported here, stated that they have heard the artifacts and that they were working on a fix through firmware.

It is unclear to me how an independent evaluation by anyone will result in Fender moving from the position that they have taken on this matter. If independently analyzed amps turn out to be fizz free, then the issue is moot. Should the independently analyzed amps fizz, then we are still back to where we were when Fender made their announcement. After all, they acknowledged the fizz is present under certain conditions.

Is there some expectation that independent evaluators might detect the fizz and then go further to posit that the fizz is unacceptable? Does anyone here really believe that this argument is persuasive?

The reason I don't find this argument persuasive is that Fender has already defined the terms under which these amps should be evaluated. They are versatile, capable of significant and desirable programming outcomes and they are cheap. Oh, and yes, some of them produce digital sonic artifacts that bother some, but not all, owners.

Since Fender has already described the fizz as present and within performance specs, the only thing that an outside evaluation would introduce that would be new is the possibility that the outside evaluator might be willing to state that the fizz that Fender accepts as being present under certain conditions is not, in their opinion, an acceptable element of the amps performance. Even if any outside evaluator would be willing to make a stand on such a subjective impression, the weight of said opinion would pale in comparison to the thousands of "satisfied" Mustang owners who Fender can (and will) point to. Many have even commented on this forum.

Let's be clear on one point. I believe that amps that are advertised as having the capability to play clean should play clean. If I buy an amp under the impression that it will play clean and it doesn't, I will take it back. If I wait too long to return it under the return policy of the store, then I will swap it out under warranty until I get one that is fizz free. If the manufacturer can't provide me with a fizz free amp, then I would request credit toward an amp that is acceptable to me. I would not expect the manufacturer to roll over and immediately negate the sales of thousands of products because of an issue that is not universally accepted as a deal breaker. I might wish that they would do so, but wish in one hand and... Well, you get the point.

Anyone who really wants to push this matter in hope of an acceptable outcome for them might do well to consider how and why Fender might see fit to depart from the "decision" that they announced. That is, is it even remotely realistic to believe that Fender would have a viable alternative to the position they have taken? Would they recall untold thousands of amps because of a disagreement over what degree of digital artifact is acceptable? Would they offer a voluntary recall/replacement for folks who don't like their amps (some might believe that the existing warranty actually offers that outcome)?

People are obviously free to pursue any legal option they wish to. But, ignoring the reality of how issues are defined and resolved will not make this matter go away. What will make it go away is the passage of time and that is why and how Fender will continue to address the fizz; they will simply wait it out, and they will prevail.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:38 am
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Hey Boux. If your amp arrived broken, why didn't you replace it?
And yes, amp internals would be interesting! But I wonder if Fender might not like to have these details posted here, so better post in a neutral forum?

bborzell: I see the objective not as persuading Fender to do anything, as the working assumption is that they won't. It is to find the root cause and maybe have the option of fixing it yourself.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:24 am
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For the record, I can add to the confirmation that 240V IIIs fizz also. At least the one I tried in-store in Australia. On clean settings, as confirmed here by others. The sales rep said he had not heard of the problem before, and then we plugged one in. As soon as I played a note on a clean un-effected sound he looked very disconcerted and said "Oh... Yes... I see what you mean... Oh dear..." And immediately pulled out some alternatives to try. I tossed up between a Roland Cube and a Vox VT80+. In the end I shelled out some extra bucks for a Vox VTX150 - fewer features than the Mustang but gorgeous tone, power scaling and no fizz. I'll buy a separate pedal for looping and put up with the rudimentary Vox interface.
An opportunity lost for Fender. I really did want to like the Mustang and without fizz, I think I would have. ymmv.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:51 am
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mpr wrote:
Hey Boux. If your amp arrived broken, why didn't you replace it?
And yes, amp internals would be interesting! But I wonder if Fender might not like to have these details posted here, so better post in a neutral forum?

Well, probably because I was born with a soldering iron in one hand and a multimeter in the other one :)
More seriously, I took it as a challenge. I was able to open and take it apart without damaging anything.
So not problem on this side. In case I could not fix it, I would have sent it back to the dealer to get another one.
For those interested, one of the pins of the secondary transformer in the switching power supply had a bad - dry - solder joint.
As a result, supply voltages to the main board and power amp chip were all messed up.
Tricky to find but repair done.
The power supply and the power amp are sitting on the same pcb.
It is obvious that this pcb is of a lower quality standard than the preamp/dsp main board.
My guess is that this part comes from another source than the main board.
I had to "refresh" many suspect joints to regain reliability.
To summarize, the Mustang V is nothing more than an entry-level effect rack with a power amp chip (class D) thrown in.
IMHO what makes the value of the product is the quality of the simulations.
My Strats and Jaguar are very happy 8)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:47 am
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bborzell wrote:
They have also, by early candid observations made by well meaning service reps on the phone with me and others who have reported here, stated that they have heard the artifacts and that they were working on a fix through firmware.


Haven't heard this. I was under the impression it was a hardware/design fault that could not be rectified by frimware?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:41 am
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Boux,did you have the fizz problem with your mustang V? After you re soldered the suspect joints in your mustang V did the fizz go away?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:44 am
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SoManyGuitars,how long do you have your mustang III?


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