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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:32 am
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Rockcat, thanks for spending the time on following through the conversation with Fender.
Regardless of their stance, knowing the cause would be interesting.

emcron, without trying you definitely can't make anything happen.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:47 pm
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emcron wrote:
They do admit that under some circumstances that some people might be unhappy. Quit saying they don't admit there is fizz. What they are saying is that they don't care, because their customers don't care. You ten guys don't get to create policy for Fender, deal with it.


Yes, they do admit that there is a fizz. But, it is a bit simplistic to say that they don't care. No company wants their leading amp line to make unwanted fizz noises. You are mistaking the business limitations of an untenable situation with failure to care.

Fender simply cannot afford to recall or fix every amp that would come their way if they were to determine that the amps were not performing within spec. This is not a car with a runaway throttle that can kill people. It is amp that fizzes and many people who buy these amps can't hear the fizz because they have already introduced a ton of noise into the signal chain. Others have chosen to ignore the fizz. Those people apparently do not care about the fizz, but that says nothing about people who have bought Mustangs with an expectation that it will deliver music and no unwanted artifacts.

Fender doesn't like where this has gone any more than those of us who believe that unintended non musical noise should not be present in any amp. No business wants to introduce a new and eagerly anticipated line of anything only to find, after the fact that it fizzes.

Short of junking an entire line of 3, 4 and 5 Mustangs, the approach they have taken is the only smart business decision. It doesn't make it right and it does not minimize the reality of the outrage of folks who bought one thing and received another.

And yes, i believe that this moment is over. Obviously, people are free to continue to try to apply pressure on Fender, but with each passing day with thousands of Mustangs going out of dealer's doors, the possibility that Fender will determine that they must recall diminishes dramatically.

Not what I wanted to see Fender do, but they will survive this and move on. Actually, they already have.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:55 pm
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LaCab,you said you bought your mustang III back in march and tried three others that also had the fizz,did the first mustang III you bought back in march fizz as soon as you played through it or did it take awhile for the fizz to develop? I also bought my mustang V back in march but i do not have the fizz problem yet and i hope it stays that way!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:57 pm
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I have the Fizz problem now too on clean sounds. I didn't notice it until I plugged my Pod HD500 up through the 4 cable method and started bypassing the effects on the Mustang III. I know that my Pod doesn't have any issues because I use it straight through a PA and it has never had a fizz.

This leads me to believe that the fizz is in the power amp section of the Mustang III just as has been said previously (I think several people have said that they thought it was a faulty power supply.)

Any thoughts Fender?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:28 pm
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bborzell wrote:
emcron wrote:
They do admit that under some circumstances that some people might be unhappy. Quit saying they don't admit there is fizz. What they are saying is that they don't care, because their customers don't care. You ten guys don't get to create policy for Fender, deal with it.


Yes, they do admit that there is a fizz. But, it is a bit simplistic to say that they don't care. No company wants their leading amp line to make unwanted fizz noises. You are mistaking the business limitations of an untenable situation with failure to care.

Fender simply cannot afford to recall or fix every amp that would come their way if they were to determine that the amps were not performing within spec. This is not a car with a runaway throttle that can kill people. It is amp that fizzes and many people who buy these amps can't hear the fizz because they have already introduced a ton of noise into the signal chain. Others have chosen to ignore the fizz. Those people apparently do not care about the fizz, but that says nothing about people who have bought Mustangs with an expectation that it will deliver music and no unwanted artifacts.

Fender doesn't like where this has gone any more than those of us who believe that unintended non musical noise should not be present in any amp. No business wants to introduce a new and eagerly anticipated line of anything only to find, after the fact that it fizzes.

Short of junking an entire line of 3, 4 and 5 Mustangs, the approach they have taken is the only smart business decision. It doesn't make it right and it does not minimize the reality of the outrage of folks who bought one thing and received another.

And yes, i believe that this moment is over. Obviously, people are free to continue to try to apply pressure on Fender, but with each passing day with thousands of Mustangs going out of dealer's doors, the possibility that Fender will determine that they must recall diminishes dramatically.

Not what I wanted to see Fender do, but they will survive this and move on. Actually, they already have.


I totally agree, Sensible post. That is why I immediately returned the III and got a II. I will just have to wait until they correct the problem (I guess in the next generation).


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:53 pm
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Further update - Final communication with Fender, which I hope is self explanatory.

I disagree with minimalising the problem on the grounds that there is no risk of injury. This is irrelevant, as the matter relates to consumer rights and customers reasonable expectations of a product in line with product marketing. As mentioned, a key issue is Fender's emphasis on the quality of the amps tone and modeling, particularly with regard to the clean Fender models. Even if only some amps are effected by the fizz, for these customers the product is no longer fully fit for purpose.

However, I respect the views expressed by those customers that are prepared to live with the problem or change their MIII/IV/V for another product.

However, if you remain unhappy and would like to help take matters further, please let me know if you would be prepared for your fizzing amp to be examined by an engineer, without time cost, and your geographical location in the US.

Quote:
Dear Matt, thank you for your reply.

I do appreciate that your hands are clearly tied on this difficult issue Matt, and would like to thank you personally for your patience in taking the time to correspond with me.

I note your comment that this matter is closed from Fender's perspective. However, I believe this issue needs a fair & independent resolution for consumers and further action will now be taken. Please therefore note the following which no doubt you will pass to the Fender main board:

[*]I hope you'll agree that customers have been more than fair and patient, and have afforded Fender every possible opportunity to keep control of this issue 'in-house', and to deal with the problem effectively and openly, without resorting to outside agencies.

[*]I would mention that whether I own an MIII or not is wholly irrelevant, because there is clearly a problem as evidenced on forum. In fact, far from denying the existence of this 'fizz', you have kindly confirmed that the problem has been referred to the highest levels within Fender, although it appears that Fender is endeavouring to play down this problem. We will therefore have to see whether Fender's stance is deemed reasonable or not, as matters progress (see below).

[*]As Fender has regretably closed the door on this issue, the only practical alternative that is likely to bring about a fair and reasonable resolution for its affected customers is for an independent examination of a fizzing amp to be undertaken by a reputable & qualified engineer.

[*]I have a number of contacts in the US who are qualified engineers and have the resource to technically examine and prepare an independent report on one or more fizzing MIII's, and I have already opened a dialogue with some of these. I will seek to help facilitate an example(s) of problematic MIII's to be provided to them for examination.

[*]Should their report point to any component or design issue, details will then be sent to the appropriate and relevant agencies in the US with all relevant technical evidence, with a request that matters be investigated and addressed formally by them with Fender.

[*]It will then be for Fender to justify its position that the 'fizz' is within specifications, and it will be for the relevant agency(ies) to determine whether or not Fender has treated its customers fairly & proportionately.

[*]Should Fender be unable to sufficiently justify its position with the appropriate business and/or consumer agencies, then at that time it will be up to those agencies to determine whether any appropriate remedial action is necessary to protect affected Fender customers.

[*]As I'm UK I'm somewhat less famiar with the US processes in this regard or what may apply in each State, but I am currently researching the appropriate agencies in the US (for example, the Better Business Bureau ( http://www.bbb.org/ ), the Federal Trade Commission, the Department of Consumer Affairs etc) and will be forewarning the appropriate agency(ies) of this issue in due course and copying them in with all relevant correspondence and forum links.

Kind regards

Richard

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:34 pm
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Metalman, the fizz was there from the start on mine and the other 3 straight out of the box.
Cheers!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:19 am
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One of my engineer contacts is near Napa, in the San Francisco Bay area.

If you are in or near the area and have a fizzing MIII, and would be willing to have your amp examined, please let me know and let me have your contact details via PM when I will then be happy to help facilitate matters.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:01 am
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BulldogXTRM wrote:
I have the Fizz problem now too on clean sounds. I didn't notice it until I plugged my Pod HD500 up through the 4 cable method and started bypassing the effects on the Mustang III. I know that my Pod doesn't have any issues because I use it straight through a PA and it has never had a fizz.

This leads me to believe that the fizz is in the power amp section of the Mustang III just as has been said previously (I think several people have said that they thought it was a faulty power supply.)

Any thoughts Fender?


I still believe the fizz emanates from the CMOS chip, and that the higher amplification on the MIII also amplifies the noise. People don't seem to notice it as much on the MIV and MV, but don't forget--those are two 75 watt amps side by side. The MIII is one 100 watt amp.

I don't believe there are any fizz-free MIII's--just people who don't know where to look or need to give it a little more time.

My guess is that there's no alternative chip available right now. When the MI and MII came out, I considered them entry-level toys. When the MIII, IV, and V came out, it was Fender's statement that these were serious gigging amps that could be used professionally.

I really don't think the engineers at Fender gave the clean amp models a good shakedown when the MIII-V came out. I think they assumed that what worked in the MI and MII would work at higher amplifications, and they rushed the new amps to market.

The fact of the matter is that the higher power Mustangs contain an inherent defect, and are not suitable for all guitar amplification purposes. To some it won't matter--especially the high gain crowd. To others it means that the amp is not quite ready for prime time. I have two Christmas gigs coming up as a vocal duo, using my Fender Jazzmaster as the only accompaniment, and I'm bringing my heavy tube amp and pedals, because the fizz stands out as a loud buzz when playing these quieter songs and sounds amateurish.

I'm hoping that if an improved model comes out someday, that Fender will quietly cut us a deal on an upgrade. Until then, I'll have fun with it at home, and on noisy gigs where the defect won't be quite so apparent.

The Mustang could one day be the Swiss Army knife of guitar amps. Right now though, it's like a Swiss Army knife with the bottle-opener blade broken off.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:32 pm
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cormorant wrote:
...
I don't believe there are any fizz-free MIII's--just people who don't know where to look or need to give it a little more time....

I thought I had a non Fizzing M3. So I was wrong ?
Can you tell me where to look ?

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:13 pm
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Quote:
I don't believe there are any fizz-free MIII's--just people who don't know where to look or need to give it a little more time.


Not correct. The MIII I had on approval was completely fizz free. I paid very very close attention to the clean tones in particular, due to comments on forum and also a 'snare-drum' effect noticeable on a loan VT40+. I was being extremely critical when listening to it, and there was fizz at all & the amp performed flawlessly.

Hopefully, on examination, we may be able to find out what the problem is and why it affects some amps but not others. There could be differences in UK versions eg the power-supply.

Anyway, with peoples help, we may have an opportunity to find out some answers. We all know that Fender has the answers and its just very sad that they are adopting the stance they have. We've given them every opportunity, so they cannot now complain if the matter is taken out of their hands.

I honestly don't know how things will unfold, but if we are successful it will send a very strong message to ALL manufacturers that consumers do have the power to get companies to take ownership & responsibility for the quality of their products. Perhaps this will help encourage better quality control and perhaps a little more thought in component selection/tolerances, design and testing.

Rich :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:43 pm
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willmodelisme wrote:
cormorant wrote:
...
I don't believe there are any fizz-free MIII's--just people who don't know where to look or need to give it a little more time....

I thought I had a non Fizzing M3. So I was wrong ?
Can you tell me where to look ?


Dial up a clean setting such as the 65 Twin or the 65 Deluxe Reverb with the gain down so you're not getting any break-up, and volume up enough to hear it comfortably. Go to your low E string (the fat one so there's no confusion), strike and hold a B note (7th fret), and let it sustain. See if you hear a fizzing noise floating up and down in volume in addition to your note.

Mine started fizzing noticeably about a month and a half after i started using it.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:04 pm
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cormorant wrote:

I still believe the fizz emanates from the CMOS chip, and that the higher amplification on the MIII also amplifies the noise.


I don't know exactly where the CMOS is in the chain, but the problem is definitely in the power section - or somewhere after the loop Return. No fizz in the Send or headphones. Weirdly or? mine (manu. date 2/11) had it, and then most of it was gone after moving up to firmware 1.8. wtf? I know that this is NOT what many have experienced. And yes, it'd be valuable to have an engineer nail the diagnosis/cause.

jon


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:45 am
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cormorant wrote:
willmodelisme wrote:
cormorant wrote:
...
I don't believe there are any fizz-free MIII's--just people who don't know where to look or need to give it a little more time....

I thought I had a non Fizzing M3. So I was wrong ?
Can you tell me where to look ?


Dial up a clean setting such as the 65 Twin or the 65 Deluxe Reverb with the gain down so you're not getting any break-up, and volume up enough to hear it comfortably. Go to your low E string (the fat one so there's no confusion), strike and hold a B note (7th fret), and let it sustain. See if you hear a fizzing noise floating up and down in volume in addition to your note.

Mine started fizzing noticeably about a month and a half after i started using it.


Definitely no fizz for me. But will keep on listening.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:18 am
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I believe France is 220/240v same as UK - so non-fizzing MIII's continue to suggest that the power section/mains transformer is a possible culprit! If that's the case it's no surprise that Fender is adopting the stance it has, as potential rectification could be a huge undertaking!

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