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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:23 pm
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Henky wrote:
I don't understand this; i saw several posts of Loren Howard - Fender and Alan Willey - Fender today but they did not respond to this thread, what's going on here?
Are they saying we are imagining things, do they think it's not a real problem, do they hope it just goes away by itself?
Come on i read lots of posts from people saying they will not buy a MIII because of this problem, you can't just ignore that!
I've talked to Loren. They know about it. They won't reply until there is a concrete answer.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:02 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
Henky wrote:
I don't understand this; i saw several posts of Loren Howard - Fender and Alan Willey - Fender today but they did not respond to this thread, what's going on here?
Are they saying we are imagining things, do they think it's not a real problem, do they hope it just goes away by itself?
Come on i read lots of posts from people saying they will not buy a MIII because of this problem, you can't just ignore that!
I've talked to Loren. They know about it. They won't reply until there is a concrete answer.


I have faith in Fender on this one. The Mustang line is already huge and going to be a great success for Fender. I have a feeling that they'll take it seriously.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:53 am
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polishbroadcast wrote:
I've talked to Loren. They know about it. They won't reply until there is a concrete answer.

So why don't they post they know about it but don't have a concrete answer yet?
That would reassure people and restore confidence instead of a feeling it's left undone or unattended.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:45 am
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If they're having problems finding a solution, the last thing that Fender wants is to create a lot of negativity. They probably feel it's best to say nothing until a workable solution is found. I'm still leaning toward it being something with the power supply...maybe it needs to be better regulated. Some people are reporting fizz at home, but not in stores, even with all appliances turned off. That tells me the Mustangs are too sensitive to the QUALITY of the power supply. Not sure how Fender will economically solve it, but a solution should be possible.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:22 am
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Disclaimer: I have a Mustang II and have no fizz problem (well, not since the last firmware update anyway...). I don't know if what each of those experiencing the problem has the same problem, but to help isolate power line noise problems from any possible amp defects, those affected need to understand power line noise problems before they blame Fender and dump the problem entirely in their lap. You, as users, also have responsibilities.

Power line noise is a very common problem for ham radio operators (and a lot of others too) and there is a lot of info on the internet about it. Below are some links that you can check to see if power line noise is the culprit in your situation.

Sound file examples of line noise picked up by ham radio operators.

Warning: Turn down the volume on your audio player, the sound samples are quite loud! What you experience probably wont be as loud and may only happen when the A/D converter is actually doing something...

Power line noise FAQ page.

This second page reads like a book, so be prepared...

Just google 'power line noise' and you will see how common the problems is for a wide variety of consumers.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:53 am
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Thanks p90sdude but this is not what's happening. Sound samples have already been posted and this noise is not the same thing as we are talking about here.

Have for years used the following in the same power outlet:

Vox Tonelab SE
A 30 watt tube amp
A 100 watt Solid State Amp
A Mustang II
A Mustang III.

The mustang III is the only one experiencing the noise problem. It is definitely not a power line problem in my case. Even my Vox Tonelab SE is quiet as a mouse. It is something with the Mustang III amp. I took it to rehearsal as well, same issue only worse since I needed to crank the volume. Drove everyone nuts.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:03 am
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reverb1999 wrote:
Thanks p90sdude but this is not what's happening. Sound samples have already been posted and this noise is not the same thing as we are talking about here.
I personally believe it is a power quality issue. DSP is very sensitive to power issues. As i mentioned before, i have had issues with other digital gear and it sounds exactly like this. It also explains (as a few others mentioned) why it is fine for some, not for others, and how the same amp can be ok at the store, but not at home.

You will never hear this type of noise in analog gear. You may or may not hear it in digital gear based on 1) how the thing is built and 2) the quality of the power you are using. When i had the Electro Harmonix pedal, the noise was the same, i sent it to EH, they modified the hardware (they said it was a known issue--Fender should call them!), and now it is completely perfect.

As for Fender responding to the issue, i can see it both ways. It is counterproductive to say "hey we are working on it" when they have no idea how long it will take, and better to just post when they know they can fix it. It would be nice for them to acknowledge the issue though.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:21 am
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p90sdude wrote:
Disclaimer: I have a Mustang II and have no fizz problem (well, not since the last firmware update anyway...). I don't know if what each of those experiencing the problem has the same problem, but to help isolate power line noise problems from any possible amp defects, those affected need to understand power line noise problems before they blame Fender and dump the problem entirely in their lap. You, as users, also have responsibilities.

Power line noise is a very common problem for ham radio operators (and a lot of others too) and there is a lot of info on the internet about it. Below are some links that you can check to see if power line noise is the culprit in your situation.

Sound file examples of line noise picked up by ham radio operators.

Warning: Turn down the volume on your audio player, the sound samples are quite loud! What you experience probably wont be as loud and may only happen when the A/D converter is actually doing something...

Power line noise FAQ page.

This second page reads like a book, so be prepared...

Just google 'power line noise' and you will see how common the problems is for a wide variety of consumers.


I really don't see how this is the consumers problem. How would you address this at someone else's house for a rehearsal, at a gig at a club or venue perhaps? There is no reason why these amps should be any more picky than the other thousands of amps out there. If this amp needed something to control it's power, it should have been built in.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:29 am
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baerashbrewer wrote:
I really don't see how this is the consumers problem. How would you address this at someone else's house for a rehearsal, at a gig at a club or venue perhaps? There is no reason why these amps should be any more picky than the other thousands of amps out there. If this amp needed something to control it's power, it should have been built in.
+1000. Other modeling products are in the market without issue.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:34 am
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baerashbrewer wrote:
p90sdude wrote:
Disclaimer: I have a Mustang II and have no fizz problem (well, not since the last firmware update anyway...). I don't know if what each of those experiencing the problem has the same problem, but to help isolate power line noise problems from any possible amp defects, those affected need to understand power line noise problems before they blame Fender and dump the problem entirely in their lap. You, as users, also have responsibilities.

Power line noise is a very common problem for ham radio operators (and a lot of others too) and there is a lot of info on the internet about it. Below are some links that you can check to see if power line noise is the culprit in your situation.

Sound file examples of line noise picked up by ham radio operators.

Warning: Turn down the volume on your audio player, the sound samples are quite loud! What you experience probably wont be as loud and may only happen when the A/D converter is actually doing something...

Power line noise FAQ page.

This second page reads like a book, so be prepared...

Just google 'power line noise' and you will see how common the problems is for a wide variety of consumers.


I really don't see how this is the consumers problem. How would you address this at someone else's house for a rehearsal, at a gig at a club or venue perhaps? There is no reason why these amps should be any more picky than the other thousands of amps out there. If this amp needed something to control it's power, it should have been built in.


I have to agree. It should be clear to anyone who uses sensitive electronic equipment that power line noise is an issue that has to be dealt with. The question here is who has the responsibility to deal with it. I have several thousand dollars worth of digital electronic equipment and none of them make the sort of noise that is often related to power line noise. My take on the issue is that the manufacturers have addressed line noise issues in production. I would further guess that Fender has addressed power line noise issues in their digital products too. Maybe the III slipped through with a lower tolerance to variations in line noise.

In any case, this issue is not one that consumers should expect to have to suck up, and I don't think Fender believes that either.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:57 pm
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If you bothered to notice, I underlined the word 'entirely'. I wasn't implying that Fender has no responsibility at all in the matter.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:13 pm
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p90sdude wrote:
If you bothered to notice, I underlined the word 'entirely'. I wasn't implying that Fender has no responsibility at all in the matter.


I did notice your use of the word "entirely". Unfortunately for your argument, it is a meaningless throw in.

Your main point was that consumers have responsibilities in this matter, but you don't specify any other than to suggest that line noise might be at issue. Digital electronic equipment is either up to handling domestic power providers or they are not. Consumer responsibility implies that consumers are either doing something they shouldn't or not doing something they should, yet your post was silent on that point.

If there is nothing reasonable for a consumer to do in order to obtain appropriate performance from a digital electronic product, then saying they have "responsibilities" in the matter is, as I said at the top, entirely meaningless.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:00 pm
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I tried the first III at home and at the store. It fizzed at both places. I tried the second III at home and at work. It fizzed at both places. The second amp seemed to be worse than the first. Both were made in 11 of 2010. I updated the second amp to 1.6.4, but to no avail. I like my tube amps(all five of them). I like my modeling amp built by a competitor. None of them exhibit this foible. But, I still want a Mustang III. The III without this problem would be a darn good amplifier. Bob


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:14 pm
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bborzell wrote:
I did notice your use of the word "entirely". Unfortunately for your argument, it is a meaningless throw in.

Your main point was that consumers have responsibilities in this matter, but you don't specify any other than to suggest that line noise might be at issue. Digital electronic equipment is either up to handling domestic power providers or they are not. Consumer responsibility implies that consumers are either doing something they shouldn't or not doing something they should, yet your post was silent on that point.

If there is nothing reasonable for a consumer to do in order to obtain appropriate performance from a digital electronic product, then saying they have "responsibilities" in the matter is, as I said at the top, entirely meaningless.

One of the posters mentioned that they were plugging the amp into a circuit that also was running a refrigerator. I have 7 amps 4 mixers 14 gutars and more FX and pedals than I care to count and none of those is going to reject that kind of noise without a line conditioner.

The way you put it, someone should be able to run 30' of poorly sheilded cable from their guitar to their amp and not pick up radio stations and then, in self rightous indignance, blame the amp/guitar for their ignorance when they do.

My guess is that if you went to the second link I provided at all, you just went 'blah, blah, blah' and copt your attitude.

The user is on the hook to educate themselves and use common sense, if that wasn't clear then maybe your attitude is getting in your way.

This is not to say that Fender has no resonsibility to provide reasonable noise sheilding. Surly it does. But it can't solve every worst case situation simply because the user doesn't want to be bothered with the details.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:39 pm
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p90sdude wrote:
bborzell wrote:
I did notice your use of the word "entirely". Unfortunately for your argument, it is a meaningless throw in.

Your main point was that consumers have responsibilities in this matter, but you don't specify any other than to suggest that line noise might be at issue. Digital electronic equipment is either up to handling domestic power providers or they are not. Consumer responsibility implies that consumers are either doing something they shouldn't or not doing something they should, yet your post was silent on that point.

If there is nothing reasonable for a consumer to do in order to obtain appropriate performance from a digital electronic product, then saying they have "responsibilities" in the matter is, as I said at the top, entirely meaningless.

One of the posters mentioned that they were plugging the amp into a circuit that also was running a refrigerator. I have 7 amps 4 mixers 14 gutars and more FX and pedals than I care to count and none of those is going to reject that kind of noise without a line conditioner.

The way you put it, someone should be able to run 30' of poorly sheilded cable from their guitar to their amp and not pick up radio stations and then, in self rightous indignance, blame the amp/guitar for their ignorance when they do.

My guess is that if you went to the second link I provided at all, you just went 'blah, blah, blah' and copt your attitude.

The user is on the hook to educate themselves and use common sense, if that wasn't clear then maybe your attitude is getting in your way.

This is not to say that Fender has no resonsibility to provide reasonable noise sheilding. Surly it does. But it can't solve every worst case situation simply because the user doesn't want to be bothered with the details.


And if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You have no evidence that people who are reporting these problems are using 30ft of poorly shielded cable.

And I guess it didn't occur to you that the one comment (of many) that mentioned a refrigerator might have been an anomaly (there's that nail again).

Yes, I did read your link. If any amplifier manufacturer in the industry were to refer customers to that link and suggest that they get their act together before calling with noise problems, they wouldn't be in the industry very much longer. You are jumping on an outlying possibility and telling us all to look at this matter your way (oh, must be another nail).

Yes, users should use common sense. And diagnosticians should, too.


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