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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:24 am
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I just joined up here in order to follow this issue and come to some kind of closure with a decision for a new amp to replace my 5 year old Roland Cube 60.

The Mustang III was going to be that amp until I started reading about uncalled for non musical sounds as have been described in this as well as other threads. After 17 pages here and several on other sites, it became clear to me that this was not the time to sell the Roland.

I recently got a '65 Princeton Reissue and am very satisfied with it's performance for jazz. What I wanted next was a higher wattage, but light modeling amp that had both a good clean channel as well as a suite of controllable modeled amps and effects to round out my electric guitar needs (I have a Genz Benz Shenandoah for acoustic sounds).

At this point, it appears to me that the noise issue is both likely to exist as described and also a result of either firmware or circuit routing. If it's the former, it is reasonable to expect that all Mustang III owners can look to a day when this problem becomes a distant memory. In the case of noise being created due to the design of various stages of electrical circuitry, a fix is likely to be more complex, both for Fender and for the amp owner.

I have had enough experiences with sophisticated electronic devices that didn't perform as designed because of programming glitches to have some degree of faith in the programmers eventually getting it right. It isn't always a slick or painless process to wait through, but I have had good luck with waiting out firmware fixes, the most recent being a sophisticated home theater pre/amp sound processor.

It is the possibility that this issue comes about as a result of physical layout that keeps me from buying a III today. It's one thing to load updated firmware and another entirely to have to open up a box and rearrange stuff. Whether such a fix were performed by the manufacturer or by the user, it is still more of an investment of additional effort than I wish to make. I would prefer to have a firmware fix, or if a physical internal change is necessary, i would prefer to have that change become part of the production process.

With that as background, I called Fender technical support yesterday to try to better understand Fender's take on the issue at this time and when and how this issue might come to closure.

The Fender rep was gracious, patient and fully understanding of my hesitation to buy a III while questions remain about the noise as described on these pages. While he couldn't say much, at this time, other than the fact that Fender monitors these pages as they continue to look into the possible causes of these reports, I did come away with the sense that of the two possible ways a manufacturer can approach an issue such as this (wait it out until it blows over and quietly fix future production runs or commit to resolving real problems for current customers), I have some degree of faith that Fender will the latter.

That faith notwithstanding, the possibility that a fix might require packing up a new amp and shipping it off (however remote that possibility might be), is enough for me to wait out the resolution by Fender.

I mentioned the '65 Princeton Reissue amp that I own. Perhaps ironically, the reason I own it might be illustrative of Fender's commitment to customer service.

In 2002, I bought a Tacoma M3E mandolin. I paid $799 for it (MSRP was about $1,200 at the time). Anyone who followed the history of the Tacoma brand might know two things; they had a bad run of finish problems that took several years to come to light and they sold the company to Fender.

This past January, the finish problem caught up to my Tacoma and I started seeing faint bubbles beginning to form on the headstock and along the binding. Since the Tacoma warranty was lifetime for the original purchaser and, knowing that Tacoma was now Fender, I contacted Fender to see what could be done to fix the finish.

Fender agreed to honor the Tacoma warranty with no hesitation. I sent the mandolin on to Fender's Tennessee repair facility and waited. At the end of May, I received a call from Fender informing me that Fender was closing the Tennessee repair facility and that my mandolin was one of 40 or so unfinished instruments that got caught it the decision to close the facility. Since there was no current plan to reopen a repair facility, Fender wanted to discuss with me options for resolving my warranty claim.

The fellow who called me had the assignment to resolve these 40 warranty claims and we spoke several times over the next few days as I considered options. Truth be told, I wanted to get the mandolin refinished so I could sell it (for somewhere between $500-600). Now that refinishing at the level of quality I knew would come from the Tennessee folks was no longer an option, I began thinking about how I might be able to recoup at least some my investment.

Fender offered to give me credit for what I paid for the Tacoma toward any product in the Fender family or they would send me a check for what I had paid for the mandolin. I countered with a proposal to settle the matter for a new Princeton Reissue which was selling for $899 on the street. Fender agreed that this was a reasonable resolution and, three days later, I was playing the Princeton.

I have no doubt that Fender will resolve real warranty issues for their customers and, if I had a higher degree of confidence that the Mustang III issue is firmware related, I would buy one today. I simply don't want to have to pack anything up or take it in to a repair facility if I can avoid that, and so I will wait.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:30 am
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mwwm wrote:
that's how my amp sounds... but like i said in the other thread it must be down to "outside" interfere as it cleared when i took it to the guitar shop.



This makes me think of an experience I had with one of my KRK VXT-8 studio monitors. One of them had a strange "fizz" as the music trailed off. I sent it back to Full Compass systems and they sent a replacement but they also said they could not replicate the fizz I was hearing. I plugged in the new one and again, the fizz was there. I sat there for a minute and pondered why in the world would the left one have fizz but not the one on the right. The only difference between the two was in how each was getting its power and the left one was plugged into a Tripplite surge protector... most curious I thought.

So just for the helluvit, I plugged the left monitor into a different surge protector... BAM! I was singing like BB King - "The Fizz Is Gone" and sat there incredulous at the thought that my problem was caused by a freakin' surge protector.

I'm not saying that this is the solution, but maybe try other AC outlets/power strips/surge protectors and rooms. It couldn't hurt to try it.

Good luck everyone.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:54 am
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I have the III with the LCD screen, no fizz.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:22 pm
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well, i have the IV, checked last night, no fizz. FWIT, i have it plugged into a power rectifying power bar.

- cad


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:21 pm
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Anyone else using a power strip, rectifying, surge protecting or otherwise?

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:25 pm
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Let's not forget the sound clip. This thread is for those experiencing that EXACT sound. This must make Fender crazy that this is happening to some amps, and not all. Regarding power. I cannot say. Tried different floors of my house. Different power supplies, surge protectors, etc. No dice.

Is it possible that some amps were sent without shielding? Also, if it were a power issue, since most amps, or all. aren't so finicky about power, should it be that the mustang is? Most of the Venues and Bars that I play, let me tell you, I can't account for them to have the best power.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:31 am
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Just listened to the clip again and the only difference between that and the problem I had with my KRKs is that the KRKs had a higher pitched fizz. Still, very similar. Not making any claims that it is the same as what my speakers were experiencing. I'm still just as puzzled... and I don't even have the problem... I have a Mustang II.
I should add however, that I had a Mustang I that did have the fizz problem until I did the firmware upgrade.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:05 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
Just listened to the clip again and the only difference between that and the problem I had with my KRKs is that the KRKs had a higher pitched fizz.
I just remembered something that lends credence to your power supply theory. I mentioned before the Electro Harmonix pedal needing to be modified to get rid of the digital noise. The person i got it from never had the issue, but EH knew about it, so they likely discovered a variation in wall power quality / voltage that they could account for and fix. I had another delay pedal (Ibanez ToneLok) that sounded fine with a dedicated Godlyke PowerAll, but when any other pedals where chained on the PowerAll, those digital artifacts would show up. In all of the cases, they were digital pedals, and were affected by power supply issues. It makes sense that i would have a similar issue with the Mustang and lines up with your experience.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:29 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
I just remembered something that lends credence to your power supply theory. I mentioned before the Electro Harmonix pedal needing to be modified to get rid of the digital noise. The person i got it from never had the issue, but EH knew about it, so they likely discovered a variation in wall power quality / voltage that they could account for and fix. I had another delay pedal (Ibanez ToneLok) that sounded fine with a dedicated Godlyke PowerAll, but when any other pedals where chained on the PowerAll, those digital artifacts would show up. In all of the cases, they were digital pedals, and were affected by power supply issues. It makes sense that i would have a similar issue with the Mustang and lines up with your experience.


There is one important difference in our experiences however, the KRKs are completely analog as far as I know. Can't see a reason why there'd be any digital circuitry in them. Also, which Electro-Harmonix pedal did you have? A far as I know E-H only made analog products but maybe some have digital control - like maybe the Poly Chorus. Still, you can have digital control with an all analog signal path.

O.


Last edited by Orcatraz on Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:39 pm
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Orcatraz wrote:
There is one important difference in our experiences however, the KRKs are completely analog as far as I know. Can't see a reason why there'd be any digital circuitry in them. Also, which Electro-Harmonix pedal did you have? A far as I know E-H only made analog products but maybe some have digital control - like maybe the Poly Chorus.
O.
True. I have had this experience with a few products and bad power. The Electro Harmonix 2880 looper is digital.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:52 pm
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polishbroadcast wrote:
True. I have had this experience with a few products and bad power. The Electro Harmonix 2880 looper is digital.


Ah. It would seem that it's been a while since I looked at E-H's product line.

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:43 am
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There is another possibility... We noticed that the amps with the LCD screens are having problems, so we could say that it has to do the with the LCD. However, keep in mind that the Mustang I and II are on a higher level firmware right how than III, IV, and V. Lets hope it is just that and the answer is on the way.

By the way, recorded a tune written for one of my bands through the headphone jack. The other guitar player was blown away by the sound. He didn't believe me when I told him that it was my digital amp through the headphone jack! :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:34 am
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Tele into my MIII, several cleaner patches, note decays just fine no "fizzy".


Last edited by Stinger22 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:50 pm
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baerashbrewer wrote:
By the way, recorded a tune written for one of my bands through the headphone jack. The other guitar player was blown away by the sound. He didn't believe me when I told him that it was my digital amp through the headphone jack! :lol:


Don't you just love freaking people out that way. Played a concert Friday and Saturday night using the MII and man, these amps are just plain stellar! I built a wooden folding Tilt-Back system for it and used a Drum Mic Clamp at the bottom bevel of the amp - perfect. BTW, the MII sounds great when you use a cheap mic - and I do mean $30 cheap. I bought the mic locally on the island so it's probably $20 on the mainland. I don't even know what brand it is. Hah! :lol: :lol:

O.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:13 pm
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I don't understand this; i saw several posts of Loren Howard - Fender and Alan Willey - Fender today but they did not respond to this thread, what's going on here?
Are they saying we are imagining things, do they think it's not a real problem, do they hope it just goes away by itself?
Come on i read lots of posts from people saying they will not buy a MIII because of this problem, you can't just ignore that!


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