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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:13 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hi johnjaypl,

the intent of trying to recreate the fizz on every amp is to figure out if this is something EVERYBODY has (which I suspect) or if it's something only certain people has.

I will try to find the spectrum analysis I did, but if you actually record your mustang output with fizz present (using the setup I provided) and filter frequencies that are less than 10x of the base frequency you get... a pure and clean FIZZ :) you can do it with audacity or any software that lets you do equalization


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:14 pm
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ok, here we go. So this is how the overtones of the Fizz look and sound like.
In this particular case I recorded a 165 hz note from my guitar through the mustang using the extreme fizz-generating setup I propossed.

The harmonic bloom you see starting at 1600 Hz is the actual fizz.

Image

This is a raw audio sample of the 160 Hz note, the fizz is hard to hear but is there in the bottom.
http://snd.sc/R9uXRs

And this is a portion of the same audio sample, but filtered below 1500 Hz, what you hear is pure fizz amplified
http://snd.sc/R9v8fA

Please let me insist that in my M3, the fizz is almost inaudible under normal circumstances and this is a extreme setup. Frankly, after having testing 3 different amps, at this point I expect every M3-4-5 to exhibit the same defect. In some cases, as the first post of this thread is more evident than others.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:34 am
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Early on in this thread a poster reports being told by a Fender tech that all the MIII-V's fizz or will fizz and that it would take a major redesign to fix it. The fact that Fender would not exchange my fizzing MIII leads me to conclude that this is true.

My fizzing MIII is an OK amp, it just has a drawback as does every other amp I've owned. Some are too heavy, some are too harsh, some are too muddy, some hum, some are subject to tube failure in the middle of a gig, etc. It's just that the MIII is not the "perfect" amp it was cracked up to be. It can't be modded to remove the fizz, and Fender won't take it back.

My go-to guitar is a Fender Classic Player Jazzmaster, and its warm clean tones highlight the fizz. The fizz is a particularly bizarre and annoying sound when it can be heard. Right now I'm back to using my old tube amp full time, and the MIII serves as an inexpensive backup or for use at occasional gigs where I don't dare bring my good amp.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:23 am
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jedi2b wrote:
ok, here we go. So this is how the overtones of the Fizz look and sound like.
In this particular case I recorded a 165 hz note from my guitar through the mustang using the extreme fizz-generating setup I propossed.

The harmonic bloom you see starting at 1600 Hz is the actual fizz.

Image

This is a raw audio sample of the 160 Hz note, the fizz is hard to hear but is there in the bottom.
http://snd.sc/R9uXRs



And this is a portion of the same audio sample, but filtered below 1500 Hz, what you hear is pure fizz amplified
http://snd.sc/R9v8fA


Please let me insist that in my M3, the fizz is almost inaudible under normal circumstances and this is a extreme setup. Frankly, after having testing 3 different amps, at this point I expect every M3-4-5 to exhibit the same defect. In some cases, as the first post of this thread is more evident than others.


You can't get a good idea of what the fizz is with a static spectrum shot. The fizz moves in frequency.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:29 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Certainly it does move. If I play a 200 hz note, the fizz is located between 2000 and 3000 hz


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:50 am
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jedi2b wrote:
Certainly it does move. If I play a 200 hz note, the fizz is located between 2000 and 3000 hz


Taking this slowly:

How does the fizz move?

And by move I mean how does it move during the duration of a note.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:10 am
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I CANT BELIEVE FENDER HAS NOT YET ANSWER OR PROPOSE A PATCH TO FIX THIS AFTER MORE THAN 90 PAGES OF POSTINGS.

I'LL NEVER GOING TO BUY ANY FENDER PRODUCT EVER !!!


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:55 am
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joaquin.moreno wrote:
I CANT BELIEVE FENDER HAS NOT YET ANSWER OR PROPOSE A PATCH TO FIX THIS AFTER MORE THAN 90 PAGES OF POSTINGS.

I'LL NEVER GOING TO BUY ANY FENDER PRODUCT EVER !!!


I'm thinking there is no patch, it'll take a major change. Also, as this thread shows, plenty of people are ok with it just the way it is, fizz and all. :?


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:27 am
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johnjaypl wrote:
joaquin.moreno wrote:
I CANT BELIEVE FENDER HAS NOT YET ANSWER OR PROPOSE A PATCH TO FIX THIS AFTER MORE THAN 90 PAGES OF POSTINGS.

I'LL NEVER GOING TO BUY ANY FENDER PRODUCT EVER !!!


I'm thinking there is no patch, it'll take a major change. Also, as this thread shows, plenty of people are ok with it just the way it is, fizz and all. :?


And im one of those... still it's not ok to act like that.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:20 pm
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I played a lot recently and noticed this fizz, it's actually quite loud. I was were concerned at first, but when raising the volume, the fizz doesn't follow. So at rehersal it's barely noticeable and when recorded with a microphone, I actually didnt hear it at all through the mic (shure sm7b and shure sm57 through vintage design m87d through fireface400).

I was very concerned about this at first, because I will use it for my next album, that it didnt go through the mic at high volume was a BIG release from my chest. It sounds much better at high volume anyway (master volume about 4 through a 2x12" celestion v30. At master volume 3-4 the sound starts to break up in a really beautyful way, far better than my roland cube 30x, that is getting more muddy at higher volume )

I recorded my last album through a Roland Cube 30x and was suprised how much more I liked it than a guitar modeller software. I much more prefer playing with the amp until I like the tone, then play around with mic positions :) wow, the mic positions make much more difference than the tone-settings at the amp. Now I understand the cab-part of the modeller softwares much better :)


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:37 am
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Just another reason why I refuse to buy one. The tone is good, but for how long until it craps out.

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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:50 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Hi Hwasser,

you make a good observation, In most cases I saw fizz is inaudible except if you play in a silent room and with a low master volume. For those cases (playing alone at 2AM at your basement at low volume anyone?) here's what I posted recently in a different thread:

If at some point the fizz bothers you (or anybody else) this is a quick fix that makes the fizz practically inaudible in all but the more extreme cases:

-you will notice that most presets (particularly the factory presets) come with a volume level setting of 7
-pick your most fizzing preset (for example, bassman basic, or deluxe 65 basic in my case, particularly if using humbuckers)
-on that preset lower the preset volume to around 1.2 to 2 should work)
-increase the master volume to 7 or more

if at this point you can still hear the fizz chances are you can also wiggle your tail and bark :)

The only downside to it is that you MUST remember to lower the master volume before changing to another preset with unmodified volume values or you risk having a heart attack.

An interesting side effect is that after lowering again the master volume to whichever value you normally use (im my case 2.5) you might notice that the fizz is either gone or very minimized, at least for a while.

Hope this helps.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:31 am
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Roadie
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Jedi2b--I'm sorry but I tried your Master Volume fix when you first posted it, and it made no difference whatsoever to the fizz. I believe I've already posted this already earlier on the thread. Whether the Master Volume is up and the regular Volume down or vice versa, there is no difference in the fizz. It's six of one, half dozen of the other.


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 am
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:47 pm
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Since it was said that, "There is some very interesting discussion", I decided to include my thread here regarding the"fizz" issue.

Read all about my adventures with the "fizz" here.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=81238


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Post subject: Re: Mustang III - Digital Aliasing (Strange Fizz Sound)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hey Cormorant,

I see what you mean. Getting up the master volume actually only maks the fizz using background noise (that gets louder as you crank up the master volume).

I guess if one has a very bad case of fizz (like the first recording on this thread) no background noise could ever mask that. If my amp ever gets to that point I will try the power amp transplant I suggested before in this thread, but as it is right now is not worth the effort in my case.

Another thing for those that want to love their mustang but can't because of the fizz, this is another setup that might help in some cases and improve the overall tone of your Mustang at the same time (particularly the M3, in other cases probably it does not make sense)

-I got from a friend an old Traynor solid state bass amp with a 15" speaker, on it's own is not usable for the guitar because of the lack of treble
-My mustang sits now on top of the Traynor and I have a connection from the Mustang fx-send to the Traynor instrument input
-Any kind of fizz from the mustang gets totally lost in the sound mix from both amps, and at the same time it adds a lot of bottom
-Overall the setup sounds 10 times better than the Mustang alone.

Image

similar setups might help those most afflicted by the fizz that still don't want to get rid of their Mustang and don't want to experiment with the insides of their amp neither.


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